Early Casualty of the Election
Well, the heat is really turning up in the Presidential election. Intense debates, emotions running high, personal attacks, accusations, spurious claims, twisted facts, falsehoods — and all that is just between regular citizens on different sides of the fence!
I had a pretty involved debate recently with a friend who’s way at the other end of the political spectrum from me. In typical fashion, I was loud and overbearing, and I wagged my index finger often to make “points.” This is the sort of thing I’ve seen or been part of lots of times in my life, like a heated encounter you might see at a coffee house in Bulgaria or something. (Is there still a Bulgaria?)
My friend became frustrated by my demeanor and several interruptions. Rightfully so. I got overly excited about what I viewed as partisan statements that were baseless or just plain wrong. I’m thinking, after all, if you’re going to disagree, then it should be about real things, not falsehoods, eh? Let’s stick to the facts and all that.
At the end of it all, several points that we both made were left unsupported factually. I offered to follow up next day with e-mailed background facts. When I e-mailed the added info and a healthy portion of my pointed opinions, I received a pretty strong rebuke — a virtual cease-and-desist order. In retrospect, I know I was being very preachy. And now: a friendship is somewhat bruised, hopefully not fractured. We’ll see.
This leads me to the thing I’m wondering about. Civil discourse. Political discourse. Discussing the issues during a major national election. Certainly, nobody should ambush anybody on the street corner or in the grocery store and just start yelling partisan positions at them (maybe because the target is wearing a political button or t-shirt). But, when there is a comment made from one side and a response from the other side, and then opposing viewpoints start flying, is that a bad thing? Should we shy away from such things? Even the TV commentators get in each other’s faces pretty good. Should we just let our vote do our talking? Lately, I’ve heard the following statement several times: “The most patriotic thing you can do is vote on election day.” Nice sentiment, but is that where it begins and ends? The booth?
I grew up in an incendiary time of conflict, open dissent, protest, confrontation, politics that certainly affected friendships. People yelled, argued, sang, marched, published, paraded, and even got beaten up and shot. In the end, much of it was witnessed by the public at large. People saw both sides in stark contrast and made their own judgments and decisions accordingly.
Today, is it different? Do we sit and let the “leaders” do the talking? Do we accept their speeches and proclamations and then just “go vote.” Should the rich not hear what the poor have to say? Should gays go unheard by religious conservatives? Should a community not see its own people in the street expressing their hopes, anger or fears? Should libs and neocons just avoid each other, or at least keep their mouths shut, maybe talk about the weather? At the party conventions in Denver and St. Paul, the street was tightly controlled. Would-be protestors were corralled, controlled, cajoled and manhandled, far from the eyes of delegates and national media. I’m not a fan of anarchy or out-of-control mobs, and I don’t like seeing protestors get smacked, smoked, tasered or cuffed, but I sure would like to see more activity by Joe and Jane public. More signs. More buttons. More posters. More gatherings.
You know, as soon as you start talking about war, injustice, equality, taxes, poverty, life, global warming, patriotism or any of a host of potentially polar subjects, you will run into claims and counter-claims, emotions, beliefs, outrage and stubbornness. As long as it doesn’t devolve into violence, that’s probably the way it has to be for our own good. How can we remain cool and detached about these subjects? How can we really, truly “respect” and tolerate a moral or political opinion that runs counter to the very soul of our being? Sometimes, particularly in times like these, it’s more than okay to express a strong opinion and challenge someone about their own. It’s essential.
This is big stuff. It impacts our immediate lives. It impacts our children and theirs. I’ve mentioned before here on CW that I’m disappointed by low voter turnout. One contributor commented that I should be glad; this was democracy in action. I said it was democracy inaction! Twenty-some percent of the public should not be all we can muster to the polls.
Ultimately, it does come down to the vote. We’re 50-odd days away. I think everyone should dig deeper for facts, engage in discussion and, yes, heated debate. Everyone should get fired up, get off their asses, be heard, try to make an impact, try to change minds, try to enlist others, try to bring issues out into the clear light of day … and not just leave it to the speechwriters and media pundits to do it all for us.
In advance, I’m sorry if I come on too strong or offend you with my political views if we get into a talk. But, that’s what this country is supposed to be all about. America was born out of dissent. It was built upon dissent. It was tested by dissent. It grew and matured through dissent. Dissent may not be pretty, but it’s necessary. And it needs a loud, strong voice.
So, are you going to pussyfoot to the voting booth or are you going to march there? Or are you going there at all? What do you have to say for yourself?
cupcake said:
Tom - wish I could’ve been there for that friendly debate!
September 16th, 2008 at 9:03 pm #
Mohawk Matt said:
I’m voting for Mr. Potato Head. Alice Cooper told me to on the radio.
September 17th, 2008 at 2:22 pm #
oldwoodchair said:
Tom: If memory serves me, we were raised in the same time…a time of strong political opinions and strong political action. So, yeah, I have something to say. Now, I know I’m just a simple girl from a small town, and I don’t have all the answers and I don’t have the time to hunt down all the facts. Right or wrong, I take information and meld it with my gut feeling (which rarely does me wrong) about a candidate, and, weighing everything I’ve heard or information I choose to believe, or the ever-powerful intuition that I pay strict attention to, I make my political choice. And then, yeah, I spout off about it. I tend not to do too much of that on CW as my observations lead me to believe that politics take a backseat to music in the strong-feeling category here. (Though I’ve happily noticed that Dino seems to be getting mega-political lately…”applaud to you, Dino!”) But since you brought it up….
I don’t consider myself either Democrat or Republican…I agree and disagree with aspects of both….generally. But in this particular campaign, the McCain ticket gives me nightsweats. Until he picked his running mate, I felt he was insignificant…just an old guy riding on his glory days of being a war prisoner. (I totally respect & appreciate what he did for his country, but it shouldn’t be his train for the rest of his life…there has got to be more to base a presidency on.) But then he picked Palin as VP. So I took a look at that. I’m impressed with her showmanship, but not with her experience and certainly not with what I perceive to be her personality. I’ve been to Alaska several times. It’s a different world. I’ve been to Wasilla. Cool little city, but so is Weston, Wisconsin, and would you think Dean Zuelegar should be VP? (Hey, I like Dean, but let him handle Weston for awhile before he takes on the whole country.) I think Palin is a flash in the pan and I think she’s a great performer and I think she’s the best shot they’ve got to take the light off of a weak presidential candidate and make their campaign appear relevant and interesting. And frankly, I don’t hear her answering any questions….just seems to fall back on the “America is great and proud” speak instead of providing specific information. And if I’m honest, I don’t like a candidate who makes “snide” comments about their opponents….no grace there.
I didn’t like Obama much in the beginning. He is lacking also in the experience category. If he’d picked Clinton as his running mate I would have been thrilled, but I’m satisfied with Biden. I think he’s a good sturdy politician (that’s not meant in the negative “politician” form) and could pick up any slack by Obama. In truth, Obama won me over by his reaction to the “Palin’s daughter is pregnant” controversy. He stuck up for her….he said family is off limits….he showed true grace. I’m in his camp.
So, that’s where I am….that’s what I have to say for myself (the shortened version)….not afraid to go roaring to the voting booth. There may be plenty of people out there (or in here on CW) that disagree with me…and that’s good!…c’mon….disagree….let’s hear it. Don’t be a sheep….be a lion…stay away from the “reality shows” on tv….get involved and vocal with some real reality…the stuff that’s going to plot our (and our kid’s) future. Only 3 comments to this post is unacceptable!
owc
September 18th, 2008 at 9:51 pm #
Tom Neal said:
Thanks, ‘chair!
Yes, 3 comments, 2 of which weren’t really.
Makes me wonder if my writing in this case lacks the power to compel a response. Or, is this an example of what I was getting at: that there could be a growing trend toward political insularity or reticence to take a stand in public?
Later today CW will crop in the weekly and usually well-received questions feature. I don’t know what the questions will be about, maybe “What’s your favorite bird?” or “Do you believe in reincarnation?” Meantime, we’re about 45 days away from choosing our next national leader. It’s way too quiet around here from where I sit.
September 19th, 2008 at 6:16 am #
Jane Neal said:
The lack of responses to this post is disheartening. I hope it is not due to apathy, but because people are too busy being involved. (Hope always springs eternal.)
I went and volunteered at the Obama office this week. I want to feel like I actually did something this time… something more than write a check or put a bumper sticker on my car.
September 19th, 2008 at 8:18 am #
timothyp said:
I haven’t commented on the presidential race or any of its’ issues because of apathy, it just that I personally do not care to discuss politics very often. However….
I will say that neither of the candidates are appealing to my sense of what this country needs.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:11 am #
Tom Neal said:
timothyp,
And yet, one of the candidates is going to be our next president. And depending on which one, there’s going to be impact on you and all of us. And, the impact created by one of them is likely to be different than the impact from the other. There are differences between the two men (and their VPs).
I can understand the allure of apathy, but I don’t think we should give in to it.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:30 am #
Mohawk Matt said:
Actually, my comment was really a comment. I can’t see myself voting this year. No one to vote for.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:50 am #
Tom Neal said:
Actually, there are people to vote for. Tough part is, deciding which one represents the least potential for damage. Matt, I think you take this too lightly. For many years, I’ve been less than thrilled with the prospects in presidential races. Nobody really stood out as a highly compelling leader. But I’ve always voted. So should you.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:37 am #
Mohawk Matt said:
That’s where we differ. I’m not going to vote for the least potential damage. That’s not what an election should be, although that’s what it has become. I should vote for the person that I want in office, not the person I don’t. Therefore, I won’t vote if I don’t believe any of the candidates are right for the job. Garbage in, garbage out.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:33 am #
Tom Neal said:
Respectfully Matt, I think that’s a cop-out. In life, we continuously have to make decisions between courses of action, each of which might carry with it some element of risk. Waiting for shining prince to ride in and save the kingdom is fairytale thinking. And inaction is just that … lack of action, lack of ownership, lack of involvement. There is no value in that whatsoever. Drop that attitude and be a voter.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:25 pm #
Mohawk Matt said:
So what you are saying is, in essence, even though I don’t want to vote for either candidate, I have to? Where is the choice in that? It’s my choice, and my choice is I don’t want to vote for these people. It’s not inaction. I don’t want either in office, so why should I vote? I could go and vote for a write-in, but that’s just a waste of my time.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:24 pm #
Tom Neal said:
What I’m saying in essence is that you should vote, not that you have to. Voting is a choice. Not voting is an anti-choice. It’s voluntary irrelevance. If you really believe there’s no appreciable difference between the two candidates and that neither has any promise of making things better, then I think you’re being overly cynical. And being a cynic myself, that’s saying a lot. Or you haven’t dug deep enough to uncover any nuggets worth considering. Maybe you should consider what other people might be thinking and wanting. Who might a soldier vote for? Who might an auto worker vote for? Or a farmer, single mom, airline pilot, whoever. Pick a segment of the population that you care about, and then try to figure out how the election might impact them one way or the other. Then vote on their behalf, even if you don’t care in your own regard. Be a part of it. Otherwise, you don’t count.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:52 pm #
oldwoodchair said:
Matt: I respect your right to do as you choose even if that is to not-do. But, (my kids hate it when I say “but”) for the sake of argument (becaue my generation loves political argument), let’s play pretend. Pretent that you are on your way to a show, but your guitar (I’m sorry, I just assume you play guitar…I swear to God that next time you play here in the Wausau area I’ll come & see you and totally get into the music) is lost or broken or maybe Sarah Palin took it and sold it on Ebay, and you get to your gig & you have only a choice between 2 lesser guitars to use for your set, but you find them both inferior and neither one meets your standards. So, do you refuse to go on stage and play or do you look at the 2 choices and find something in one that out-weighs the other, even just a little bit, and you choose that one? What do you do?
Our country has lost it’s good guitar. For lack of that instrument, we are losing jobs and homes and hope. We need to pick a new guitar to play because if we leave it up to everyone else, they may not pick the right one and then the music will be bad and our country will lose the sound and that will be the day that the music died.
Pick a guitar, Matt. They may be inferior to your standards, but it’s our only chance to keep on rockin’.
September 19th, 2008 at 10:54 pm #
Mohawk Matt said:
Nice analogy, very clever. However, voting for one of these two “lesser evils” isn’t something I’m going to do. I may vote this year if I find a candidate worthy of my vote. I may not. It may not be Obama or McCain. So if I vote for someone else other than these two, what then? Did I still let America down? Will you ultra-patriotic members of society still look down your nose at someone who really doesn’t care about democrats or republicans? I think you would, just so you can feel better when your “lesser evil” wins and you can say, “I voted him into office.” Makes me really want to write-in Mr. Potato Head. Or maybe Mr. Neal.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:18 pm #
Tom Neal said:
To try to convince someone to reconsider a political position is to “look down your nose” at them? If I try to engage you in the process, or ask you to consider the needs of other segments of the population … your brothers and sisters … then I am looking down my nose at you? Matt, that’s not a fair view. Yes, if you write in a spurious name, it would be a wasted vote. If there was a significant third party presence and you voted that way, at least you would reflect an alternative with some energy behind it (i.e. Libertarians, Greens). By referring to me as “Mr. Neal” it seems I’ve gotten under your skin; your dander is up a bit. I don’t want to anger you. I strongly disagree with your chosen path of inaction. It’s not a statement. It’s not a political position. It’s just nothing. I can’t get over the fact that you refer to me as an ultra-patriotic member of society; I’m almost the opposite in many ways. I have pretty radical roots and quite not-mainstream attitudes to this day. Perhaps today my idealism and pragmatism are striking an uneasy balance. Maybe some day that will happen with you. Meantime, analyze where you’re at as a person and a resident of this country and project out what the future might look like and how you might like to make it better … at least for someone else.
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:01 am #
Boogenstein said:
I am not able to vote, but have donated to the candidate of my choice. Both here and in Europe I have often found that those who didn’t vote are the first to bitch and moan about the resulting government. I wish that those who are too lazy to investigate the candidates and then too lazy too be bothered to go and vote for whoever, would also be too lazy to criticize our future government! Alas, I fear that all their saved up energy will be put to use very quickly!
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:27 pm #
Mohawk Matt said:
“I don’t vote. Two reasons. First of all it’s meaningless; this country was bought and sold a long time ago. The shit they shovel around every 4 years *pfff* doesn’t mean a fucking thing. Secondly, I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around – they say, ‘If you don’t vote, you have no right to complain’, but where’s the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people into office who screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem; you voted them in; you have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote, who in fact did not even leave the house on election day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with.” -George Carlin
If you can find more logic than George Carlin on this subject, well, I guess I’ll bow down.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:22 am #
Tom Neal said:
As much as I’ve always admired Carlin as an iconoclast and humorist, this statement is simply bombast built on flawed logic … and a heck of a thing to model one’s political stance upon.
First … just look at it logically. Think of it as business, not politics. Involvement and investment equals ownership. Ownership equals the right to express dissatisfaction when promises are broken or performance is unsatisfactory.
In politics, this is true for those who voted FOR the winner who lets them down later. Those who voted for the opposing ticket have that distinction to hold up as validation.
Logically, just as in business, those who have no involvement or investment would be expected to just stay out of it and let the players take care of everything.
Matt, you’re fed up with politicians. Fine. Who isn’t! But a decision to opt for voluntary disenfranchisement is a hollow and ineffectual protest. If you aren’t invested as a voter or activist, you’ve neutered yourself. What’s the value in that? Logically speaking.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:23 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
I said this in college, “I do not vote, and as such I do not complain.”
I never engaged in any political discussion, unless I was willing to take responsibility for said action. While I lose often in elections, I avail myself to the process.
My voting is my admission into the discussion. Without my vote, I make a choice to sit quietly. And I have no desire to sit quietly.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:16 pm #
oldwoodchair said:
Matt: big Carlin fan here…been for many years. And am very familiar with the diatribe you quoted. However, the preface to the paragraph you posted is as follows:
“Now, there’s one thing you might have noticed I don’t complain about: politicians. Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don’t fall out of the sky. They don’t pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It’s what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you’re going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain’t going to do any good; you’re just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it’s not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here… like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There’s a nice campaign slogan for somebody: ‘The Public Sucks. F*ck Hope.’”
And I believe, in Carlin’s way of teaching (and I believe he was a great teacher through his humor), he preaches a message by slapping us in the face with words
that are a challenge to think and to act and to take a stand. I think he chanllenges us to not be a silent public…I think he dares us not to me small & quiet….and I have higher hopes than that. I see a candidate that I believe won’t be a selfish, ignorant politician…who may be the exception to the rule. And I’m not going to sit by with a demoralizing attitude about the whole process and watch it go to hell…I’m going to talk & cajole and blog and march and put a sign in my yard, and write a check and discuss and cast my vote and hope for the best. And, yes, if he turns out to be a piece of crap, then I’ll yell loud & clear because I had a hand in hiring him and he is answerable to me, Jane Public.
If you are determined not to invest in this election, then so be it…it is, after all, your right, and I respect that right, and I also appreciate the exchange of different opinions and outlooks on the whole subject…thank GOD we have the freedom to do that!!! Your choice to not be involved would never make me think less of you…I am just an ignorant chick and you may be right & I may be way off base, but the discourse of the subject is, to me, the thing that’s great.
One last Carlin quote and then I’ll shut up (unless I think of something else to say, of course)….”Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist.”
owc
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:24 pm #
Mohawk Matt said:
I’m so fed up with this thread it’s ridiculous. OWC, I thought about putting the whole quote up there, I’m glad you did. Tom, I never said I was going to complain about politicians if I didn’t vote, that was a response to boogenstein. I’ve complained the last eight years because I voted. Big whoop. We’ll see what happens in a couple months.
I’m glad I got at least a couple people riled up, that always makes my day better.
September 24th, 2008 at 6:26 am #
Tom Neal said:
Matt … after all that has been written here, including the responding “logic” that you yourself requested, you simply toss it all off with a “I’m so fed up with this thread” comment? Bad form. Sophomore.
OWC said she respected your right to not vote. But you toss her off with a “fed up” and you toss me and Dino and several others off with that curt dismissal. You’ve accused some of us of being ultra-patriotic and looking down our noses at you. I guess because we disagree with you and are eloquent about it.
From where I sit, your arguments have been thin and weak. You’ve made a choice. I believe, on the face of it, that it’s the wrong choice. For me, it goes against the grain on a pretty fundamental level. Even when I suggested that you forget about “you” and think about voting on others’ behalf, you didn’t even acknowledge the possibility.
Through this thread and others that you contribute to, you reveal much to the community (accurately or not) about who this person “Mohawk Matt” might be, what drives his comments, his attitudes about people and society, his values, … I won’t comment on my perception, it doesn’t matter. I don’t even know who you are. You’re out there on the fringe, in the shadows, happily riling people up. You’re “Mohawk Matt.” I guess this whole back-and-forth with you on this thread is moot, because no such person really exists. It’s really just a character. I think your name is really Burt or Alex.
September 24th, 2008 at 7:17 am #
timothyp said:
You are not being fair here….he (Mohawk Matt) and I both said that we would vote if there was someone we could stand behind and vote for with conviction. That wasn’t good enough for you… you say that we should vote anyways. Why not instead of voting FOR a candidate, they give us the option of voting AGAINST a candidate? A negating vote.
Where is the accounting in these presidential elections anyways? The public vote means diddley, it comes down to electoral votes which may and have gone against what the popular vote tallied.
Why do people vote for the “lesser of two evils”? Why should we have to? Two party system, that is why.
Debates are held before each primary with very seldom a hard question answered, the same as during the Presidential debates. They say what they can to spin people over to their “side”, do not answer to topics that they have no clue, they’ll say ANYTHING to get elected then renege on those soft promises. BTW, who do you think pays for those debates on television? The two major parties… who can and will disclude anyone they do not want to participate. That is fair? Not to me.
I do not like to discuss politics for just these reasons. No matter who you vote for or do not vote at all, the game is seemingly rigged. How else could you explain a bumbling dullard being not only elected to be President, but to be re-elected?
Mohawk Matt, I know that we don’t particularly care much for each other,but I agree with some of what you think on this subject. Go with your convictions as will I.
September 24th, 2008 at 10:18 am #
Tom Neal said:
timothyp … I agree with your observations about our sorry political system. Can’t really think of a place where things are much better. I wish it were different. We’re treated like idiots by the parties. And to loosely paraphrase George Carlin, we pretty much ARE idiots because we stand by and let it all happen … like sheep. But dis-involvement is not an answer. If you are that alienated, then be a revolutionary, be an activist, organize, take a proactive radical public stand, fight against the regime, bring it down. That’s the American way, too.
But, barring that sort of involvement, I still think the hopeful voting approach is far better than the cynical non-voting one. You can argue that voting is a useless exercise. That’s debatable. But, grousing and being idle is inarguably useless. Useless by its very nature. Why support voluntary uselessness? I hope there aren’t too many people out there that hold to this philosophy of yours. It’s fatalist. And unimaginative. And lazy. It’s not what my Dad fought for in WWII. He’d be sad to see this attitude.
September 24th, 2008 at 10:37 am #
Jim Rosenberg said:
As an elected official for more than a decade, I’ve cast literally thousands of votes. It would be wonderful to have the opportunity to choose between good and evil, God and the devil, good and better, or bad and worse. But most often, that’s not the way it is. We invariably must choose from an array of imperfect options that offer advantages and drawbacks which must be weighed against each other. There are unknown factors involved and the risk of unintended consequences. New developments come into play to alter the landscape after the fact. Sometimes, the job isn’t even to be right or wrong. It is simply to decide, because it is the only way to move forward instead of being paralyzed — even if it takes a backward step to eventually advance.
September 24th, 2008 at 1:06 pm #
Tom Neal said:
Hi Jim …
Zen master Salim Salaam writes:
“The decision to not decide is itself not a decision, but merely a surrender to indecision and an embrace of chaos. This is not the way to true enlightenment.”
From: “The Sound of One Hand Not Deciding”
September 24th, 2008 at 1:41 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
Oh the two party system. Sigh, that is simply NOT true.
You can vote for whomever you choose. They have a write in section in Wisconsin. Write someone you choose in, a person might be called to greatness.
September 24th, 2008 at 3:56 pm #
Mohawk Matt said:
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose freewill
September 24th, 2008 at 5:03 pm #
cupcake said:
Ok, I had some thoughts I’d planned on sharing; views I thought about for several days, and now this has gone so far off path that I really don’t want to share my political views, and questions. So just let me say two things:
-I’ve heard that in Australia you are FINED if you don’t vote! I think that is a great idea!
-As a mom whose son is going to be deployed to the Middle East in a few months, to fight for YOUR freedom and YOUR right to vote, I’m asking everyone who reads this to think about him, every veteran, everyone who has lost someone in a war. Don’t tell me it’s corny; I don’t care what your view on the war is. Please vote.
September 24th, 2008 at 7:14 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
I think it is disappointing when someone asks direct questions of someone, and that response is met with posturing and avoidance.
September 24th, 2008 at 8:55 pm #
Barry Liss said:
There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas
September 25th, 2008 at 8:03 pm #
Boogenstein said:
Rush lyrics now? Good grief! You need to grow up. You take your political philosophies from comedians and song lyrics and expect to be taken seriously? Do you not understand that this election is not just about the future of this country but of the Planet? Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb-bomb Iran sung McCain. Your posts don’t give away your leanings but they sure do bring your intellect to the masses!
September 28th, 2008 at 8:17 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
Thank you Boog. We stop engaging even on a local level, the things that affect us directly. We simply chose to bury our head in the sand, rather than do the tough work of having a real discussion.
I had always hoped that we at Citizen Wausau would try to engage one another in a respectful, serious manner.
September 28th, 2008 at 11:26 pm #
Barry Liss said:
Actually Boogenstein, the lyrics were directed at Mohawk Matt in post 29 who also uses Rush lyrics…I guess I am curious as to what could possibly be wrong with the utilization of lyrics (or poetry or any other art form) in a post, especially Rush lyrics as the band has consistently offered insight into human interaction - it’s a philosopher’s band one might say…further, that song in particular (Trees)is appropos because it deals with a divided social grouping…
You might watch your rabid egoism Boogenstein, which bumblingly and cynically seeks to create an enemy out of an ally…
Barry
September 29th, 2008 at 9:33 am #
Mohawk Matt said:
Intellect to the masses? What, the six people who posted on this? Didn’t know I was supposed to impress anyone. Obviously I was taken seriously enough to keep the post going for so long.
Dino, it would be nice to engage in a serious manner if most of the main posts here weren’t questions about what your favorite color is or what you think the best blade of grass is in marathon park.
The rush thing? I thought it was kind of neat that’s why I put it up.
I wear big boy pants everyday. I think I’m quite grown up.
And now an attack at my intelligence. That I take offense to, boogenstein. So now you can kiss my ass.
My posts don’t give away “leanings” because I don’t have any. I don’t follow the party political bullshit like most of my countrymen.
You’ve got the right to your opinion. I’ve got the right to punch you in the mouth if I don’t agree. (find where that quote is from, boog, maybe you’ll get it)
September 29th, 2008 at 9:34 am #
Tom Neal said:
MM,
Re: post #36:
FTR, it’s nine, not six.
“Obviously taken seriously?” … Seriously? Not so much.
What does your comment re: the CW Questions feature have to do with this topic? What a deflection! Zero debate points.
September 29th, 2008 at 10:49 am #
Mohawk Matt said:
I’m not debating anymore, Tom. Like I said, I was fed up with the post a while ago. Now I’m just reacting to everyone else.
September 29th, 2008 at 11:18 am #
Dino Corvino said:
I think that the comments in this thread are illustrative of the post itself. Matt gets tired of the actual discussion of issues, and retires from the discussion with a intellectual harrumph to take the position of reactionary voice.
We live in a country formed on IDEAS. Ideas like shovels that carved out our place in the world, and now we live in a country where too much thinking or discussion is bad and something to be upset by.
Very illustrative.
September 29th, 2008 at 12:05 pm #
Tom Neal said:
Very apt observation, Dino. Regrettably, so.
September 29th, 2008 at 12:42 pm #
Barry Liss said:
Dialogue is a better game than monological assault…unless someone is really funny…
September 29th, 2008 at 5:45 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
http://maps.google.com/vote
October 1st, 2008 at 2:25 pm #
Boogenstein said:
Barry, your comment and it’s intention was understood. I’m sorry that I didn’t make that clear. My aim was directed at the petulant child.
October 1st, 2008 at 6:01 pm #
Barry Liss said:
Boogenstein, I appreciate the brief note and I begrudge you nothing…I’ve come to see these debates as a sort of game, which if played well can pull the other interactant a bit towards a more reasonable outlook…despite my training, it’s an exceedingly difficult set of skills to develop…a different approach might be to embrace the divergence in the other’s position and seek to bridge it, really find out why someone believes one thing rather than another…
cheers, Barry
October 1st, 2008 at 8:00 pm #
Mohawk Matt said:
Petulant Child? Boogenstein, you have no idea who the hell you are talking to. I suggest you refrain from big talk you can’t back up.
October 2nd, 2008 at 11:31 am #
Tom Neal said:
“you have no idea who the hell you are talking to”
That’s a prime example of the alias approach to online debate. Who is Mohawk Matt or Boogenstein? Handles. Noms de guerre. Masks. And a license to “sell woof tickets” wholesale. Bar talk. Bluster.
So many of the citizens who participate here use their real names. When I tell Jim Carlson I’m going to smack him around; he knows who said it. And he hides from me when I come around. (Sorry, Jim). CW is a site intended for mature usage, meaningful interaction and a modicum of respect … even when in the heat of verbal battle.
Boog … chill. Matt … unclench.
October 2nd, 2008 at 12:00 pm #
Boogenstein said:
Tom, feel to call me Adrian. Matt, we have met before.
October 2nd, 2008 at 5:00 pm #
cupcake said:
“We in America do not have government by the majority, we have government by the majority who participate.”
Thomas Jefferson. 1787
October 2nd, 2008 at 5:25 pm #
Boogenstein said:
Tom, your post was a worthy one and I am sorry if I played a part in derailing the comments. I will only differ with you on one thing. I have used this name online, and off for more than 2 decades and don’t hide behind it. I will attempt to provoke argument on my own pages. It was fun though ;)
October 2nd, 2008 at 6:41 pm #