Shop Local
I may be a few days late - as the big shopping weekend has come and gone - but I would like to mention the “Buy Local” campaign that City Pages has been promoting the past few weeks. Having worked on this for the past month, I am very excited about reminding everyone about the huge impact we can have on our local economy.
Although the idea came from a national organization that City Pages is a part of, the idea of spending money at independent, locally owned stores is a simple one that is growing.
When spending your money at a big box chain store, some of the money does stay in the community. However, the percentage of money spent that stays in the community is so much more if spent at a locally owned retailer.
Here are some of the ideas I would promote that we all think about during the holiday season, and throughout the rest of the year. And let’s not confuse “Buying Local” with shopping only downtown, as one person I spoke with believed. There are downtown shops that have lead the way for years, such as Evolutions and Janke’s.
But gift shops are abundant in our area, from Ambiance and LPG in Mosinee, up to Gifted Sisters, Treasure Mill, or the String Bead. Two of the best places to shop for gifts are All About Art on 3rd Avenue, and the CVA downtown - filled with jewelry, pottery, scarves, woodworking as well as watercolors, photography and other art.
Most of the jewelers in town are independent - except for the chain stores in the mall.
Speaking of the mall, there are a few independently owned stores, such as Packerland Plus - are there others?
I admit there are some items I feel I had to buy at a chain store because they weren’t available at independent retailers - a digital camera, or career clothes for my college age son - gotta go to Penney’s!
When Christmas is over, I challenge you to continue to buy local. Getting your hair cut - local or chain? And if you need a snow blower, Grebe’s or Menards? (and I’ll tell you that Grebe’s delivers for free - with a full tank of gas! When ours needed a slight repair and was still under warranty, Grebe’s came to my garage and fixed the snow blower for free! Remember that when you feel like you need might get a better deal at a box store). For light bulbs and other hardware, Home Depot or the locally owned ACE Hardware in Weston. (Is Charlie’s Hardware in Mosinee locally owned?)
Needing a picture framed? I challenge you to check out Cheryl’s Framing or Wausau Art & Framing (just re-opened last week under new owners) or Picture Perfect at Cedar Creek; I know you think you’re getting a great deal with that 50% off coupon for Michael’s - but I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised if you give an independent framing shop a chance.
I encourage each of you to let us know other local stores you would like us to visit.
And if you go to www.thecitypages.com/pledge and pledge to spend at least $100 locally this season, you will be in a drawing for almost $2,000 in gift certificates that area merchants have donated. You must enter by Wed. Dec. 3. BUY LOCAL!
Cheryl Mathis said:
I just made a pan of brownies from a brownie mix that was purchased at an independent gift store. Delicious. It was a present I was happy to receive. Yum! It’s inspired me to buy similar gifts for my near and dear this year. Now if I can only find time to go downtown…
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:18 pm #
Matthew Mueller said:
Don’t just bash the big box stores… I consider some of them to be local… Shopko is headquarted out of Green Bay, and Menards has their HQ in Eau Claire. When I think of the Shop Local movement I take a look at the region around Wausau. When I go shoping if I need a digital camera I stop at shopko because while you can’t buy it at a mom and pop shop, you can still buy it from a local company like shopko where more of your money stays in state, and you support local jobs, than if I was to buy it at Walmart which has their corporate office in Arkansas.
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:31 pm #
Lisa Shilts said:
Excellent point Matthew; this is the kind of information I’m looking for. If we’re educated on who the actual owners are, it helps us make a better decision. However,
I still believe money spent at Grebe’s or ACE/Weston, where the owners are residents, will keep more money in the immediate area. My second choice would be Menard’s, as you suggest.
What about grocery stores? I would suggest TOwnline or Country Fresh Meats may be the only truely locally owned grocers. Trig’s calls itself locally owned in their flyers; I believe the owners are in the Eagle River area. The IGA stores would be next, part of the Copps system - isn’t that a Wisconsin chain?
I’m just wanting to know more to help me make my decisions, as I REALLY am sold on keepin my money local.
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:02 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
Downtown Grocery?
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:34 pm #
Mohawk Matt said:
If you lived in Arkansas, would shopping at Walmart still be shopping local? Just a thought.
December 3rd, 2008 at 2:06 am #
Tom Neal said:
First, I’m a proponent of the shop local concept. It’s good to reward local entrepreneurs for the risks they take. And the negative impact on the high-volume big box retailers would be incremental at most.
On the other hand, isn’t it a shame that we as consumers are too often looked upon by many as the solvers of domestic economy problems? “Buy more.” “Buy local.” “Buy American.” “Spend your economic stimulus check.” “Give the retail sector a shot in the arm.” “Build a house.” etc. etc. After 9/11, Bush told us all to go on vacation and spend money! Our GNP is seemingly measured in how much money we spend at the mall or fast food outlet! Used to be it was measured in how much we produced in industry.
Yet, where’s the public hue and cry for corporations and major investors to “invest local” “invest American” “support our domestic economy”?
Steel mills gone. Textile mills gone. Auto plants shutting down. Countless miscellaneous factories closed or cutting back. Posh corporate headquarters in the U.S. for companies whose manufacturing jobs are outsourced overseas (I sound like P-E Obama!).
Yes, we’re part of a global economy. But lots of other countries operate within that economy while successfully building their own. Asia is eating our lunch. Lots of people say we must avoid “protectionism” because it will turn around and bite us in the ass. But, there has to be a way (ways) to reward domestic investment, and to prevent the big-money people from sheltering their gains in offshore banks as they live the good life in the good ol’ US of A.
December 3rd, 2008 at 8:01 am #
Barry Liss said:
…so if I buy something at Evolutions…and it was actually produced in Iceland or Tangiers or Spain…does that still count as shopping local?
December 3rd, 2008 at 2:32 pm #
Tom Neal said:
Yes, Barry, that’s shopping local. Although not quite as local as buying a handmade, gingham-festooned oak goose wall hanging with heart-shaped cutout for your kitchen or pantry from the Talent Shop. Mmmm-mmm good!
December 4th, 2008 at 7:23 am #
matthew said:
Barry asks a very pertinent question. I fail to see how buying from Evolutions is shopping locally since the merchandise is produced somewhere else and the money buying it goes someplace else. The profit stays with the local owners, who probably use a portion of it to buy new merchandise from someplace else. But buying from a big box store is not buying locally. The profit goes somewhere else. No question there. The goods that are sold there are manufactured somewhere else so a lot of th emoney goes out of the area. But the big box stores employ many, many more people than do places like Evolutions and, because of that, infuse a lot more money into the local area than do the small locally owned shops. I’m also guessing that the big box stores pay a lot more in taxes than do the small locally owned stores. The people who work at the national big box stores are local people and the money they get for working largely stays in the local area. I guess I fail to see how a person can shop locally unless the goods are actually manufactured in the local area.
December 4th, 2008 at 8:23 am #
Tom Neal said:
If local shops like Evolutions lose too many customers to big boxes, then they close. And we lose vitally needed character downtown. We’ve all seen this phenomenon repeated time and again in towns everywhere. It’s a disease. And it’s largely self-inflicted by those who turn their backs on their own neighbors who are small business owners. I could write volumes about it. It’s absolutely necessary to patronize local businesses that, though they may be small, add such a large contribution to our sense of community identity. Bayfield, Mackinac Island, Door County, Aspen, Martha’s Vineyard, Taos … all small communities built on, and thriving on, local entrepreneurship. Transform any of these into suburban clone shopping meccas and they will turn into crap.
December 4th, 2008 at 9:40 am #
Mohawk Matt said:
Everyone should watch the documentary “Walmart: High Cost of Low Price”. It will make you not shop at Walmart ever again. It’s phenomenal.
December 4th, 2008 at 10:39 am #
matthew said:
Can we assume that all small local businesses add to the local color? I fail to see that. Also, what about MacDonald’s? They’re locally owned by our neighbors. Or the other franchisees? They’re local people, too. I don’t think a person can say that just because a business is locally owned it is necessarily a part of the local character and, based on that, deserving of our support. Some are just poorly conceived and poorly run ventures that will not survive. But back to my question: Since MacDonald’s is locally owned by our neighbors, is eating at MacDonald’s buying locally?
December 4th, 2008 at 11:02 am #
Tom Neal said:
matthew … I think you’re drifting a bit far afield from what is probably the main thrust of the discussion. Literally, yes, supporting your “local” McDonald’s is a form of buying local. As is buying from your “local” walmart. But, I believe the main idea here revolves around more grassroots, entrepreneurial, community-based businesses mentioned in the original post. If a local McDonald’s closes, we’ve lost a national franchise. If a local organic grocer goes under, we lose something more precious in my opinion.
December 4th, 2008 at 11:52 am #
Mohawk Matt said:
I think everyone should support their local bar and come see me at Sam’s Place.
December 4th, 2008 at 12:13 pm #
matthew said:
When the Fish family invested in the first MacDonald’s franchise in the area in the 1950’s they were local grassroots entrepreneurs who invested in the community and risked their futures. Because they worked hard, they succeeded. They’ve donated a lot of dollars to the community. They’ve employed thousands of youngsters. They’ve been good and valuable members of the community. If they had failed we, the community, would khave lost more than a ‘franchise’. They don’t compete with well run grassroots community-based businesses. The Mint Cafe, for example, has co-existed with MacDonald’s for over half a century. The reasons these local businesses fail is because they are poorly conceived and/or poorly run. Thes one that survive do so because the owners know how to run a business. The ones that fail do so for many reasons other than the presence of national large stores. A ‘local organic grocer’ succeeds or fails based on his or her ability to identify and fill a viable niche in the economy. Does the community lose something if it doesn’t make it? Maybe so. But it succeeds or fails because the community is either willing to support it or not.
December 4th, 2008 at 12:18 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
Matthew, as a friend of the Fish family, I see your point. But the fact is in this climate, we see predatory non local businesses do damage to local communities.
The predatory nature of the WalMart real estate division is well known.
I think it is possible to run a small example. Shoes. Not made here, to my knowledge. I need a new pair of shoes. If I buy a pair at Eastbay, it is a locally started company. Okay.
But, when I buy it, the money slips out of Wausau. It does return in the form of wages for those folks.
But, if I instead buy a pair of shoes from Dwellers, that money slips only to Rothschild.
It is possible to point at all businesses and see that funds slip away, but I think it is a common sense approach that we have in 2008 for keeping money local.
It is not an absolutist position. Because no shoes are made here, so we would all be barefoot. Cars are not manufactured here, so we would all be walking.
A simple return to buying from someone who lives here, an effort to make our consumption conscious is what I believe that the shop local call brings us to.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:07 pm #
Tom Neal said:
matthew … I’m sorry, you sound a bit like a CEO. You seem to speak in terms of survival of the fittest … being smart … competing effectively. You are being pragmatic. You don’t seem open to understanding the nature of exploitation (high-volume buying, corporate backing, exportation of capital). You do, I’m sure, understand the considerable (huge, actually) value of the national advertising the McDonald’s chain provides to drive traffic to your local fast food joint. Same goes for every big box and chain outlet you can name. Locally conceived and operated businesses must operate without this luxury. They can’t afford TV spots during the Super Bowl. So, ergo, they don’t know how to run a business? No, they are just not able to compete with the big boys. So, therefore, they must adapt or perish?
Mostly, (forgive me for painting you as a Scrooge) you seem a trifle cold to the idea of supporting the mom-and-pop or small-time risk-taker. Your last sentence re: community willingness to support local business is the crux of the issue. The “shop local” call is a concept, a philosophy that is aimed at preserving the lone wolf in us all. It’s a nod to uniqueness, and daring, and, yes character. It’s an embrace of interdependence. That’s how I see it anyway.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:31 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
I think that Matthew brings up some good points, everything is ultimately local to a point.
But I think that we lose that in a lot of ways…where is exxon local to? Or 3m?
It all starts in a garage, or a dream, but at some point it changes, and I think that my act of buying all my books at Et Als rather than Barnes and Noble enhances Wausau a little bit.
Al Post gets my money. Al lives here, and spends the money here. So that is cool for me.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:37 pm #
Barry Liss said:
Pecunia Alter Sanguis…
December 4th, 2008 at 2:57 pm #
Tom Neal said:
pecunia / ALTAR / sanguis
December 4th, 2008 at 3:09 pm #
matthew said:
Tom - Your presumptions about me are way off base. I’m glad you know so much about me and my knowledge, or as you suggest ‘lack of knowledge’ about how business works. I’ll suggest your attitude displays a pollyannish elitism. Nowhere have you demonstrated how a big box store would drive a local organic grocer out of business (your example). Instead you diminish the local roots and the risks the Fish family took when they opened the first MacDonald’s in the area. why is that? Are they by nature exploitive of the Wausau community? If you suggest that you offer them a huge apology. Business is always about adapting or perishing. When I was growing up in Wausau, and if you didn’t don’t presume to lecture me about it, there were four small neighborhood grocery stores within walking distance of our house. The Bautsches and the Heaths and the other local entrepeneurs opened supermarkets. Eventually the local groceries disappeared. The result? Better quality, greater selection and lower prices. That’s the way it works. Dino’s examples about shoes is a good one. He says it would have been all right to buy the shoes from EastBay when Rick and Art were selling them out of the trunks of their cars. But because they were successful and sold the business and made a lot of money, it no longer is good to buy from them. He buys them from Dweller’s. They’re still around because they found a viable niche. A better example is HT Cobblery. They compete very well against the big stores because they have a viable service and product to sell. Another example is Van Dalfsen’s. They seem to fit the image of what you say is desirable, Tom. But there was one problem. There was no market for their product and they couldn’t make it. Nothing to do with big box stores. Everything to do with providing a quality product that people will pay for. Dino, you can buy your books wherever you want. But remember, the people that work at Barnes and Noble live here and spend their money here as well.
December 4th, 2008 at 5:09 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
Matt…thanks. Its rare my analogy is a good one.
though I did not mention art and rick, or harry even. My point in that is simply, and it is the inherent issue with the shop local concept…when I hand jason at dwellers my 50 bucks, I know some of that money leave. but i also know his kids, and wife, so anecdotally, I feel better handing him money.
When I had eastbay my money thorugh the call center or retail store, I feel like my money leaves town.
I know intellectually that it leaves, comes back, is needed to make the kid get paid. I know that.
But I feel more satisfied handing The Cobblery or my man Garvey the money.
It is not a perfect idea, but it is something.
I think the idea of shop local truly comes from the reeaction to the horridly predatory nature of wal mart, almost entirely.
I do understand about Barnes and Noble. i truly do. For me, I wish I could pay the library to rent books…but instead I have to buy books at the Friends Sale.
I hope that Toms “polyannish elitism’ does not take away from a warm and wonderful post from first time poster Lisa Shilts.
Look what you started Lisa.
December 4th, 2008 at 11:20 pm #
matthew said:
In the interest of clarification - and to dispense with the notion of inconsistency - could someone please explain to me how the newly announced arrangment with Amazon is a part of the CW campaign to buy locally mentioned in the post that began this thread?
December 5th, 2008 at 10:20 am #
Andy Laub said:
matthew, I first need to clarify that the views expressed by our contributors are not necessarily indicative of any campaign on the part of CW. Yes, this site is about all things Wausau and because of that we support any decision to buy locally. But we also support the ability to freely decide where to buy from. With apologies to local business owners, I cannot always afford to pay the premium of buying something from a local shop versus a big box store or an online retailer.
You said “But remember, the people that work at Barnes and Noble live here and spend their money here as well.” which I think is a great point. Yes, B&N still makes money, but it trickles down and benefits the locals as well. The Amazon partnership is no different in that regard - you’re giving them your money, but in doing so you’re also supporting a local organization. I hope this clears things up.
December 5th, 2008 at 12:01 pm #
matthew said:
Thanks, Andy. I don’t have any problem with it. Actually, I misread the original posting and see that it is City Pages that is leading the campaign. Let’s see if Tom labels the people at CW as favoring ‘exploitation’and being ‘Scrooges’ and being ‘cold’ to’small time risk takers’,all of which he said about me. Quite honestly, to me buying from Amazon is even a step or two removed from buying at local big box stores etc. since no one here depends on Amazon for their livelihood.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:03 pm #
Tom Neal said:
matthew … quotation marks indicate an excerpted word or phrase or other directly pulled content. You wrote: “I’m glad you know so much about me and my knowledge, or as you suggest ‘lack of knowledge’ about how business works.”
You indicate in quotes that I suggest you have a “lack of knowledge” about business. I never used the phrase and didn’t infer you had a lack of knowledge about how business works. Actually, you seem pretty savvy about business.
I did say that I FELT you weren’t, quote: “open to understanding the nature of exploitation ((high-volume buying, corporate backing, exportation of capital)”. That’s a quote you could pull if you wanted. And I still stand by it, because you won’t comment on it. In fact I’m not the only one in this thread that has brought up the subject (not your “understanding”, rather exploitation itself). I shouldn’t have written “understanding” … I should have written “open to considering the nature of exploitation.” Sorry if that set you off.
Really, it’s a discussion that is ongoing nationally as the “walmart” scenario plays out in town after town. That discussion has at least two sides, and probably more considering the various levels of compromise people can come up with. It’s a well-documented story with a common theme wherever it plays out. Walmart isn’t the devil; but there is another side to the phenomenon that I am aware of and sensitive to. And I’m not sorry about that!
I feel your charge of “polyannish (sic) elitism” is an angry, inappropriate cheap shot and reveals a dig-my-heels-in position that further debate won’t benefit. But, matthew … if you can’t abide with opposing opinions, then why offer your own? Do you not expect to encounter an opposing view?
“Elitism” … a code word that popped up in the recent presidential election that the “reds” threw at the “blues” … I didn’t understand it then and I don’t get it now.
When the GOP ticket chose Palin and certain notable GOP leaders cried out in protest that she was a mistake, they were labeled intellectuals and elitists … by their own party, presumably the non-intellectual and non-elite of the GOP.
I’ve gone back and re-read my posts and matthew’s and others’ … and looked for elitism (i.e. belief in rule by an elite). Didn’t jump out at me.
Pollyanna … Websters says that’s “a blindly or foolishly optimistic person” …
So I’m an elitist who thinks he sees the silver lining … hmmm. matthew, go back and read post #6 and then tell me I’m optimistic.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:22 pm #
Tom Neal said:
matthew does not like me one little bit.
I can see where my opinions and “style” can come off a bit confrontational. But, cripes … when I write, “forgive me for painting you as a Scrooge” … how harsh is that? I don’t mean to be un-civil. But, maybe I really must be more careful in my choice of words and not challenge people about their positions on weighty issues.
Thanks to Lisa for the original article. And as always, Dino, thanks for your support.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:57 pm #
matthew said:
Pollyanna - “a blindly or foolishly optimistic person” You seem to have the belief that if the big stores didn’t exist these small stores would flourish. To me that is foolishly optimistic.
Elitist - “Characteristic of or resembling a snob”. I see a lot of that in your comments. You seem to devalue the people who work and shop at places like WalMart, in favor of the ‘organic grocer’. You make a value judgement that an ‘organic grocer’ benefits a community than a big box discount store. Refer, please, to Andy’s comment that he cannot afford to pay the premium to buy locally. He is not alone in that. Overlooking the economics of the consumer reflects an elitist attitude. You tend to overlook that the people who work at WalMart, exploited though you may claim them to be, rely on that job for an income. By proposing that we simply not shop there does nothing to improve their lot. If your proposal reached its ideal conclusion the WalMarts of the world would go out of business and these people would lose their jobs. To ignore these people in favor of your ideal of a community’s character devalues these people and their well being, and that, Tom, smacks of elitism to me.
I’ll stick with what I said.
I’ll be very happy to discuss the nature of exploitation. You, and Dino to a degree, seem to characterize the national chain stores as Walmart. It’s an easy target. But to suggest that every one of them is WalMart is simply wrong. Target and StarBucks, as two examples that are present here, are often mentioned as two of the best companies in the US to work for. Yet you ignore all of the others and fall back on the WalMart mantra. Explain to me how these two specific companies exploit people. You have made the charge. Even WalMart, whom I will not defend, does offer things like some health insurance. How many of the local small companies offer this to the few employees that they have? And, Tom, you’ve posted twice since I posted about the relationship between CW and Amazon. Is that buying locally to you? It must be, because you seem to be critical only of me.
December 5th, 2008 at 2:16 pm #
Mohawk Matt said:
If you buy dope from your local dealer, but he got it from out of state, is that still shopping local?
December 5th, 2008 at 2:17 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
I think Mohawk Matt has touched on something important.
December 5th, 2008 at 2:46 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
As one of the founders of this website, my goal was in fact to have this sort of high level discussion that Matt and Tom are having, with the easy laughter that Mohawk has thrown in.
I want to thank you both for engaging in this discussion in this manner. I think that you are in fact an example to others on the internet, who easily destroy all semblence of rational discussion (you should be at my day job) for a irrational baiting of emotional positions.
Thank you Matthew and Tom and The Hawk.
Thank you Lisa for this awesome post.
December 5th, 2008 at 2:53 pm #
Lisa Shilts said:
I was extremely dismayed at the skepticism expressed at
the “shop local” concept! Maybe I should have included the following stats and facts in my original post; these are the numbers City Pages used in our campaign: “…numbers from Civic Economics show that 68 cents of every dollar spent at independent, locally owned businesses stays in the community, while only 43 cents stays when spent at a chain.” Based on City Pages’ 4 week cumulative readership during our campaign, we estimate $2 million more will impact our community than if spent at a non-local big box retailer.
May I add that, as I understand it, shopping on-line (although convenient) sends every penny out of town!
And, I did shop at both Downtown Grocery and the Talent Shop this week! (Tom, the only time you sounded ‘elitist” was in making fun of the Talent Shop!)
I’m going to close with a quote from a column by Bill Berry in a Madison paper earlier this fall. The entire
column can be read at
www.madison.com/tct/opinion/column/307050
but here are the final two paragraphs:
What does this have to do with Wall Street and financial meltdowns? Well, if we’re in for a rough ride, then we’d better think twice about how we spend our money, who we spend it with, what we spend it on and whether we get any service in the deal. If we’re concerned about our communities, and we should be in good times and bad, then one of the best ways to support them is to buy local when we can and when we’re happy with the products and services. Add up the costs and benefits.
It’s time to stop sending our money to faraway places. It’s time to come back home. It’s time for a renaissance of what we had when Main Street was truly the main street. Winter’s coming, and we have to take care of one another.
December 5th, 2008 at 6:51 pm #
Barry Liss said:
If I might throw in my sentiments about the matter:
…instead of buying local or distant which is a relative and ambiguous distinction…
… buy for a better self … seriously think about whom you want to be in a decade and chain up cause and effect so that happens.
… nobody can tell you what or where or how to buy - much less even to buy at all! If you’re in debt, buy yourself some freedom by saving your money.
Now, if you have some bread and feel the need to invest in a better self…here are some nonexclusive guidelines:
a) Buy in a manner that pays homage to the Muses - beauty has a right to be - ugliness is ripped down and replaced asap…
b) Buy in a way that cultivates a practice…a practice is a long-term and disciplined form of action that cultivates and develops the practitioner by exemplifying his/her abilities, talents - examples of practices would be (besides all the arts) cooking, golf, birdwatching, photography, hunting, gardening, etc.
c) Buy in a way that defends language and increases your ability to understand the world…English is good, another language is better…why? Because you already speak English…
Some representative products:
a) Visual and plastic art supplies such as paint, clay, brushes, canvas, etc.
b) Musical instruments, lessons for voice and instruments…
c) Books that will be read…
d) Language software such as the Rosetta Stone…
e) Hobby materials…
f) Things that relate to physical fitness and health…
g) Anything conducive to a better understanding of science, philosophy and religion…
> I think this is especially true for parents buying for kids…musical instruments and paintbrushes are toys too…but better kinds of toys…
Barry
December 6th, 2008 at 6:57 am #
matthew said:
Lisa -
What about the people who work at these places? Are they not local people? You immediately eliminate them from your ‘community’. Their livelihood doesn’t matter. Whether you accept it or not, that smacks of elitism. Let’s look at Dino buying books. He chooses to buy them at Et Al’s. So, according to the statistics you cite, 68% of the money he spends stays in the community. I assume Al has no employees. So his livelihood is effected. Some one else buys books from Amazon. They save some money, and CW possibly gets a little money. Another person buys books at Barnes and Nobel. 43% of that money stays in the community. But it’s 43% of a much larger pool and I’ll venture it adds up yo a great deal more money. Plus, B&N has a lot of employees and its success effects the livelihoods of a lot of people in the area. Which of the three book selling options provides the greatest benefit to the ‘community’? It’s a subjective appraisal to decide, but they people who buy at Amazon or at B&N don’t appear to criticize Dino for buying at Et Al’s. Barry, in his post, makes some pertinent points. The concept of buying locally is “relative and ambiguous”. That’s true. So, all the suggested advantages of buying locally rest on a relative and ambiguous foundation. The study you cite talks about locally owned businesses. I’ve asked Tom, and I’ll ask you, does that make eating at MacDonald’s, locally owned in this area, buying locally? As Barry says it is relative and ambiguous. He further states “no one else can tell you what or where to buy”. An absolute truism. Throughout this discussion, I have never said that one purchasing option is preferable to another. Everyone has the right to choose which choice is best for him/her. But doesn’t some suggestion or implication that buying a certain way is detrimental to some ‘community’ a means to validate (or invalidate) the choice? Andy said that he sometimes cannot afford the option of buying locally. And he is not alone. But Andy and the rest are also members of this ‘community’. If buying at a national store allows him to get something he wants or needs at a price he can afford, then he benefits. And if he benefits, the community benefits because he is a part of it. At the same time you can argue that someone else in the community, the local business owner Andy doesn’t patronize, is harmed by not getting the business. But why should the seller in the community be more valued than the buyer? After all there are a lot more buyers.
December 6th, 2008 at 9:13 am #
Tom Neal said:
My son is studying selective attention in his H.S. psychology course. Selective attention … attending to something while tuning out or not being aware of a simultaneous event. Like, reading, but only absorbing certain words and phrases. Throughout this thread, people have clearly agreed that buying from any given national outlet in our community IS a form of supporting local business. Obviously. It’s there and people work there, etc., etc. This is no great revelation. We all get it.
At the same time, some have added that “buying local” in the sense of patronizing other locally conceived and based businesses is also (ALSO) a good thing. They hope that we not forget those smaller businesses, because, should those unique, community-based businesses die, then (each time) we lose something unique in ourselves as a community. I made fun of the goose things at the Talent Shop (sorry, Lisa), yet I have shopped there and bought things.
But, if the public simply follows a consistent habit of driving to the big box or Mickey D’s, other options that lack the brand awareness or benefit of national advertising support may suffer to the point of inviability. Conceivably, a malaise can set in where the risk-taker just says, “Heck, I’m not going to try something different. I’ll go safe and buy a franchise.”
In the end, when all there is is the same, national, omnipresent cookie-cutter stores, fast food restaurants and Red Lobsters, this would make me sad. And others would be sad. But, some may just say, “That’s progress. That’s the way it goes.” Others propose a proactive concept: “think local” “buy local” … a way to spread the wealth around (uh-oh … socialism!).
December 6th, 2008 at 5:13 pm #
matthew said:
“unique, community-based businesses”. If they’re unique and there is a viable market, then they survive. If not, they don’t, regardless of the competition. And please, Tom don’t accuse me of selective attention. Condescension does not become you. what we have left is that you say we should not frequent national stores because you predict it will lead to the demise of unique localy owned busineeses. That is simply your opinion. And, even if it were to be true, is is based on a value you have that the existence of these things is a good thing. It may or may not be a value that other people share. Yet you don’t simply say that you will continue to frequent these stores because of your value, you expect others, whether they share the value or not, to do the same. Again, you deride MacDonald’s and speak in favor of buying “local”. Yet you grudgingly admit that eating at MacDonald’s is indeed buying locally since they are locally owned. So now we have reached a point where you have decided that some locally owned establishments are acceptable while others are not. So Tom, we have reached a point where you are saying that your opinion, based on a value you hold but not shared by others, should determine everyone’s course of action. If not, you are ‘proactive’ while the others simply become ‘creatures of habit’. And that, Tom, suggests that you believe your values are better than other peoples, and not just for you. But for the rest of us as well. And that, whether you like it or noot, is an elitist point of view.
December 7th, 2008 at 9:25 am #
deepintheheart said:
This is not a story of organic grocery stores. This is not a story of great consequence. But here is a recent experience that I had with a big-box retailer in your town.
My mother and her husband visited me in the last few days of October. We played some golf and I smoked some baby backs on my smoker. Mother’s husband was fascinated with the whole art of smoking. He spoke several times about his desire to purchase a smoker, but had never seen one for sale in Wausau.
In anticipation of the upcoming holiday, I figured this would be a reasonable gift solution for him. Here in Texas, I had purchased my smoker from my local Home Depot store. I happen to have three Home Depot stores within 5 miles of my house (not to mention two Lowes stores). I simply chose the one closest to me.
When considering the smoker purchase I first looked online at the Home Depot website. Indeed, I could purchase a smoker online and have it shipped to his home. The shipping cost was just under $100. This seemed outrageous. So, being familiar with other retailers who will ship your online purchases to the store closest to me and NOT charge shipping, I inquired to Home Depot customer service about this possibility. They do not offer this service. Bummer.
So, I decided to call the Home Depot in your town. After wading through the computer options–and hammering the 0 on the phone to speak to a human–I got an actual person to speak to. This associate had no clue what a smoker was, if the store even carried them during the “grilling season,” and was seemingly very busy.
However, the associate walked to every corner of the store and inquired in seemingly endless departments about the purcahse that i wanted to make from their store. All the while chatting very pleasantly with me and employing a wonderful sense of self-deprecating humor. When the associate eventually discovered that the store in Wausau stocks them, but only seasonally–now replaced by snow shovels and ice melt, no doubt–she offered to (get this!) locate one at another store, get it drop-shipped at THEIR EXPENSE–to the Wausau store, and then call me back to allow me to purchase it. Two days later the associate called me back to tell me that they had received my requested smoker and that I could finalize the transaction over the phone.
This level of customer service felt very “local.” In my metro area, this simply doesn’t happen. The response typically is “try one of our other stores”. And while another store may be only a few miles away, it could easily take 30 minutes to get there. Would an associate call ahead to check if my trip was worthwhile? No. That is the prospective customers job.
And while this doesn’t address the global, organic, and esoteric thoughts of previous posts, it speaks to me about the value of local people to Wasuau’s local economy. Good people work for national retailers. Good people work in locally owned businesses. *ssholes work in both.
December 7th, 2008 at 10:55 am #
Tom Neal said:
matthew … you epitomize selectivew attention. Read these excerpts from my posts:
“Literally, yes, supporting your “local” McDonald’s is a form of buying local. As is buying from your “local” walmart.”
“Walmart isn’t the devil; but there is another side to the phenomenon that I am aware of and sensitive to.”
“Throughout this thread, people have clearly agreed that buying from any given national outlet in our community IS a form of supporting local business. Obviously. It’s there and people work there, etc., etc. This is no great revelation. We all get it.”
Again you put words in my mouth when you write, “you say we should not frequent national stores” … I’ve never said that. I have not said we shouldn’t shop at walmart or anywhere else. I have said that we benefit from “ALSO” supporting local businesses. I cannot see why you insist on taking things out of context, or worse yet, creating quotes I never wrote. It’s pointless and I’m quite tired of being called names (condescending, elititst, snob, Pollyanna) and basically accused of trying to rule the world. I said you sounded like a CEO and referred to you as Scrooge, which I apologized for when I made the reference. I think the scales of unpleasantness are tipped decidedly in your direction; I don’t know why you feel you must take this approach. As it is, I’ve agreed that you take a more pragmatic approach, whereas the “shop local” concept may seem a bit wide-eyed and silly to you. I’m outta here.
December 7th, 2008 at 11:34 am #
Mohawk Matt said:
Ok, here’s my two cents. Matthew, large retail stores like walmart or target do have a significant effect on mom-and-pop businesses. Go to any small town in Wisconsin that has a walmart and ask the locals what stores have closed since they opened. In my hometown of Antigo, I can think of 5 right off the bat that closed since walmart came to town. Now, as I said in an earlier post, watch the documentary “Walmart: High cost of low price” and talk about how walmart is good for a community.
And, just so you can call me an elitist, I do prefer smaller, mom-and-pop businesses. However, the woman and I shop at Target for our kid. So what does that say? All it says is that I am a consumer.
Maybe I missed it, but what are your values on this topic? All I’ve heard from you is naysaying and calling Tom a snob. (Which you should stop, that’s my job)
December 7th, 2008 at 2:27 pm #
Tom Neal said:
Yo, Mo … you gonna start on me, bro?
Hope you have a good and safe Holiday season!
December 8th, 2008 at 7:44 am #
matthew said:
Mohawk -
My view: Deciding when are where to spend your money os your decision. You can shop anyplace you choose. I respect your right to do so and I expect you will respect my right to do so. You will note I have never, I’ll repeat never, suggested that Tom or Dino or anyone shop or not shop at any place. It’e their choice. I also think that people have no right to assume that factors and values they factor into their choice should be factored into other peoples choice. Look, for example, at Tom’s reasoning. He began by pointing out economic and cultural arguments for shopping locally. But he ignored the economic impact large national stores have on the local economy, not all good but surely not all bad. He did recognize this financial impact later on, but he still draws some kind of line between some locally owned businesses, he mentioned Evolutions, and other locally owned businesses, like MacDonald’s. Clearly, Tom is suggesting that it is ‘buying locally’ to shop at one, but not the other. Why? He has yet to explain it except to rely on his claims that one adds to the community culture and the other does not. He also says that not shopping as he suggests will lead to some kind of economic dystopia. In all of it there is either the lack of recognition or the rejection of two keys points (besides the income that these businesses provide to many people in the community). One, he ignores that he decision to shop locally are based on the values he holds and that these values may not be shared by others. Should others, then, be obliged or lectured to shop in the way he sees appropriate? My position is that it is your choice. You, the shopper, have the right to spend your dollars in the manner you choose. Just like Tom. Second, the decision is very often not to buy locally or buy from a national store (remember, as Barry has suggested, that is an ambiguous distinction). For many shoppers, as Andy pointed out,the decision is to but from a national store or not buy at all because buying locally often costs more. As I pointed out earlier, these people, both those who earn their income from these businesses and those who shop at them, are also members of our community and their right to choose, like Tom’s, deserve to be respected.
I shop based on my values. Like, everyone else, this decision is based on what’s right for me. If I need one or two bolts or some advice I go to the local hardware store. If I need a hammer, I go to a big store because it’s cheaper. I also shop locally at a couple of stores that are owned by friends of mine. One of the reason is that friendship. I would recommend the hardware store strategy because, in the long run, it saves you money. I would also recommend the big store strategy because in the short run it would save you money. But I would not recommend that you shop at my friends’ stores because they are my friends. That’s your choice. My friendship with the owners should not factor into your decision. And I don’t fault you for that.
As to your comments about WalMart, earlier I said that I do not defend WalMart (although I recognize that members of our community rely on it for jobs and need the low prices to buy things). But the constant referral to WalMart is almost a strawman. There are other large retail businesses, I mentioned Target and Starbucks, that are often recognized as among the best US companies to work for. It is risky to use any one or two to characterize all of them.
December 8th, 2008 at 8:31 am #
Lisa Shilts said:
I’m back - and you guys give me a headache! I thought this was such a simple idea. Once again, the bottom line is that MORE MONEY spent at locally owned stores stays in the area - 25 cents of each dollar.
I never dismissed any store in this community - I do shop at chain stores, as I mentioned. I believe the consumer has to, at least occasionally.
Here was my Saturday: took my grocery list to Townline Road, spent about $45. Went to Pick ‘n Save to get the 4 items I couldn’t find at Townline. Got my prescription from my locally-owned pharmacy, where the pharmacist wrote a note on my receipt about the Oklahoma Sooner game that night. (That is personal service!). Ate at Treasure Mill/Graff’s Mercantile on Thomas and bought a couple of things. Then I fought the crowd at Kohl’s for one item. Last week I also shopped at Downtown Grocery, the Talent Shop and hopefully, my only trip to Walmart over the holiday season.
I am very fortunate, I know, to not have to plan every purchase to be the cheapest I can find - service means too much to me. I shop at Downtown Grocery, but I do not buy all my groceries there, as I am not into the organic or vegetarian lifestyle, so I will not again pay almost $5 for a bottle of apple cider vinegar (when all I wanted was to use it for was to kill fruit flies!) when it is about $1 at the grocery store.
Let me say this about how independent stores also help our economy, as it has been pointed out that the larger stores employ more people and pay more taxes. When I look at retailers like Happy Mac, DaySpring, or Grand Repeats, I know that when they have fliers or brochures printed, they probably use local print shops. They also probably purchase their insurance from local agents. And, I guarantee you, they advertise with local media. (99% of my salary comes from local merchants, bars and restaurants. Look at any City Pages and you will see that we seldom have advertising from a national store or restaurant.) Look at the WDH - aside from the inserts on Sunday, you won’t see many ads except from local stores. There are certainly more areas than this where small businesses help our local economy.
Remember, 25 cents more of each dollar stays in the area when shopping local!
December 8th, 2008 at 7:27 pm #
Tom Neal said:
Cripes, Lisa, all that running around … no wonder you have a headache! Good post.
December 9th, 2008 at 7:42 am #
matthew said:
“99% of my salary comes from local merchants, bars and restaurants. Look at any City Pages and you will see that we seldom have advertising from a national store or restaurant” . . . so you frequent them and think everyone else should as well. Nothing wrong with acting in your own self-interest.
December 9th, 2008 at 7:54 am #
Tom Neal said:
There you go, Lisa … by expressing that you like to shop locally when you can, and by encouraging others to join you, that means you “think everyone else should as well” and you’re “… acting in your own self-interest.”
If there’s something you value and invite others to join in, I guess that’s somehow a bad thing, or you have an ulterior motive. You “polyannish (sic) elitist”.
December 9th, 2008 at 10:49 am #
Mohawk Matt said:
You know, I’m one for a good argument (or discussion), but I can’t even bring myself to get on this one. It almost seems like a jilt to the original topic. With that, I’m done with this one. Shop local, it’s better for the community. That’s my elitist stance. Props to ya, Lisa.
December 9th, 2008 at 11:25 am #
matthew said:
My, my my . . . so I said Lisa thinks other people should shop locally because she encourages them to do so. If she doesn’t think other people should do so, Tom, then explain to me why she would encourage them to do it. Are you suggesting that Lisa encourages other people to do something but she doesn’t want them to do it? As for acting “in your own self-interest”, Lisa says 99% of her salary comes from local business. So, at least to me, it makes sense for her to encourage people to shop locally and keep these businesses around. If they disappear, her income (or at least 99% of it disappears). Are you suggesting, Tom, that Lisa does not act in her own self interest by one, shopping at the businesses that provide 99% of her salary, and two, encouraging other people to do the same? You seem to have decided to focus on attacking me personally, Tom, but this latest post borders on the absurd. I said that Lisa is acting in her own self interest because she is patronizing the businesses that provide her livelihood and encouraging others to do so. I also said that there is nothing wrong with that. I’ll stand by both statements. You’re the one who seems to imply that there is something wrong with acting in your own interest, not me. Maybe your son’s psychology textbook has a name for a person who encourages other people to do something but really doesn’t want them to do it. The only word that come to mind for me is “liar”. I don’t think Lisa is a liar, Tom, do you?
December 9th, 2008 at 1:13 pm #
Tom Neal said:
This has been most … uh … illustrative. I’m with Mo … on to greater things.
I can’t get Led Zeppelin’s “Communication Breakdown” out of my head.
December 9th, 2008 at 3:07 pm #
Lisa Shilts said:
Maybe this will be my last post, too. Matthew, I knew when I made the comment about my salary being provided by the local companies, someone would throw that back at me.
I’m a good Christian girl from the south, so you gotta believe me when I say that I don’t just buy local because these shops support me. Honest. I will, however, admit that I choose stores & restaurants often by choosing those I know advertise with CP. But it’s usually not between the chain stores and the local stores; it’s most often between the small independent
locally owned shops.
Where do I go for tanning gift certificates for my son for Christmas (don’t laugh - since he’s red headed and freckled, he thinks maybe he should get some sun before heading to Iraq!)? I go to a spa that advertises with me. Do I get coffeeshop certificates at Starbucks, or at Allister Deacons? Pizza at Godfathers, or at Mickey’s? I tried to buy something at Evolutions, a regular advertiser with us, but they didn’t have it so I went to Krueger’s. Where do I consignment shop - Nice as New or Prior Attire? Usually I try to go with the shop that uses CP to “grow their business” as we say in advertising.
But I shop them for many reasons. I have gotten to know the owners over the years and I know how much they sacrifice, how hard they work, and how little they make. I know how frustrating it is when a small shop in Mosinee carries a line of collectibles for the same price as Younkers - but people would rather drive to the mall. I support them for many reasons.
My point was the local shops spend monies in the area that chain stores don’t - through insurance agents, print shop, advertising, etc. I estimate that at least 75 people are employed at City Pages, Buyer’s Guide, Families First, and yes, the WDH, because local advertisers spend their money there.
And Tom - how about advertising and marketing agencies?
I know you have more than one office, but I assume a large percentage of your clients are more local.
I also have an opinion about men not feeling comfortable enough to shop in small gift shops and support many of our local retailers, but I’d be called sexist and so I won’t say anything like that!
December 9th, 2008 at 7:32 pm #
Dino Corvino said:
Well, I think that this intellectual exercise has run its course.
I thank the prime movers in this discussion.
I honestly thank Lisa as well, and I hope that she will write more for CW in the future.
(And I am afraid to shop at little gift shops)
December 9th, 2008 at 11:52 pm #