On May 14th something exceptional happened at a local committee meeting. We have it from three sources that at the last CISM (Capital Improvements and Street Maintenance Committee) turned into both a verbal, and some might say a physical, conflict.
The issue on the table, as you can see in these minutes, was a PEACE statue or memorial a recent exchange student wanted to create and donate for placement in the triangle grass by the courthouse between the library and United
Way office — intersection of River Drive, Washington and First streets.
This discussion quickly deteriorated when first term councilman Matt Kaiser once again stated his objections to the piece of art based on the idea of it being controversial or possibly misunderstood. Mr. Kaiser also pointed out that we currently have memorials to fallen officers and fallen soldiers, and they are more “civic” in nature.
Around this time sources say long time councilman Ed Gale became, to use a phrase, impassioned in his reaction. Mr. Gale, according to the minutes, objected strongly, and an exchange happened. This exchange, according to sources, quickly turned personal and “intimidating” in nature.
It is also around this time that a watch belonging to Mr. Gale, made its way through the air. Reports differ as to whether or not this was thrown at Mr. Kaiser, or just thrown out of impassioned frustration.
The notes also mention that “Mr. Gale returned to his chair.” When asked, sources were unclear as to what that meant, save for the description of Mr. Gale standing up. Did Mr. Gale storm out of the room as we were told? The notes do not reflect that.
I have chosen to highlight this issue for a few reasons. One being to point out the nature of our city’s committee meetings. Apparently some real back and forth and discussion happens — sometimes watches even fly about the room.
Secondly, I highlight this to illustrate that our first term council people have already chosen to make their leadership felt. In this case Mr. Gale is a long standing figure on the city council, even having run for mayor as well as serving on the county board, and Mr. Kaiser took his political life in his hands and stood up to a man who is known to be a bit, shall we say, gruff.
Finally, while it is only 2009, it is clear that mayoral politics are already in play. Watercooler talk has Gale considering his run, as well as another member of the council deciding to run in the future. It is important to see that this behavior, while possibly acceptable in a councilman, is something we need to give thought to in regards to selecting a mayor, our ambassador to the world. People have already begun to put together strategies, and ‘Survivor-like’ alliances are being formed within the community as well as the professional staff within the city.
I do not want to portray this as a smacking of Mr. Gale. This is simply not the first time we have seen Mr. Gale be referred to as intimidating or gruff. I have often gone to City Council meetings simply to watch Mr. Gale and his fascinating levels of frustration. It is however the first time that watches have gone flying, and other councilpeople have become verbally intimidated by the process of back and forth. These actions taken by our councilpeople, not just Mr. Gale, have results in the community. We need to be more aware of these types of actions.
Also, it is fascinating the difference in the account put forth in the minutes below, to what people in the room have told me occurred. I am also told that the city creates an audio recording of these meetings, but when Citizen Wausau asked for such a record, we were told that they do not exist. I am unsure of a policy that would allow the city to deny us public records, no matter what the format, but as we have seen from the mayor and the Wausau Daily Herald, anything is possible. So, if you know if an audio record is made, we would love to hear from you.
Dino Corvino
4:04 pm on May 21st
I have been told that the reference in the note about Mr Gale returning to his chair refers to Mr. Gale passing the gavel and chairperson role to someone else, because the motion was not being seconded, and with the gavel he is unable to second a motion.
This apparently is simply a procedural thing, but I also think it is interesting that NO ONE wanted to second a motion.
hpiguy
7:47 am on May 22nd
If a citizen got angry and threw an object, any object, big or small in City Hall, they’d very likely be arrested for disorderly conduct, possibly more serious charges given our overzealous DA. But in a city meeting it is allowed?
This type of behavior is uncalled for. Even in heated arguments or discussions. Intimidation and threats, items being thrown have no place in gov’t.
It’s an attempt to keep the less powerful down and that’s simply not right.
I’m disappointed by my councilman’s actions. Greatly.
John H. Fischer
7:50 am on May 22nd
If I remember right from reading the minutes… there was a comment that “generalized” the feelings of our veterans on this topic. And Mr Gale, who if I remember right from reading the minutes is a purple heart recipient (I really should go back and read them before making comments.. huh?) took offense to the generalized nature of the statement.
I like Gale. We agree on many aspects of things, but we disagree on just as many things. Why I really like Gale (even when we are on opposite sides of an issue) is that he doesn’t play games. He isn’t going to tell you what you want to hear, he is going to tell you what he things… that type of blunt honesty is refreshing.
Making and seconding a motion are big deals to some people, and often people think that if they move or second, that they must be strong supporters of the issue at hand. That is not the case. It needs to be moved and seconded just to get it on the table for formal discussion.
In boards that I am a member of, people are sometimes surprised when I vote AGAINST a motion that I made – when in reality the only reason for making the motion was to get the discussion going.
Rob Mentzer
9:16 am on May 22nd
Hey I am not in favor of throwing watches ever, but it certainly IS galling when people think they can say “veterans think this” or “veterans think that” without accounting for the fact that, you know, vets have differing views.
Also, Matt Kaiser really thinks city policy should be to oppose a pro-peace displays? That seems kind of nutty to me. Though I don’t really know the particulars, maybe the statue is, like, a sign that says “Screw you, soldiers, we hate you!” or something.
Dino Corvino
9:19 am on May 22nd
John,
There is some question about these minutes. I have recieved information that the city does record these meetings on some audio format, beyond just the printed minutes.
I requested that recording as well, and was told that the city does NOT record these meetings.
I have scoured the bylaws of the city, and the city website, and found nothing in regards to recording. But, if there is one, it would be a further public document and when we requested it, it should be given.
John H. Fischer
9:48 am on May 22nd
I know that council meetings are recorded, I didn’t think that committee meetings were taped unless the press was going to do it because of a high-profile item on the agenda.
Being a combat veteran myself, I also might have taken offense when someone tells me how I feel about something.. I do have issues with some of the stands that the VFW takes on certain issues.
However, my new watch is a xmas present from Mrs Rent so I don’t think she would approve of me throwing it.. and this Citizen Blue Angles watch weighs like a pound or so.. so it would make a quite lethal projectile.
mattkaiser
10:12 am on May 22nd
I find it interesting that folks can determine that I have spoke forth how veterans feel and how galling that is of me. However, the actual minutes reflect my thoughts very well and what was spoken at the meeting. They indicate that I said that veterans “MAY” feel….twice. It doesn’t say matt kaiser is speaking for all veterans or anything of the sort or even remotely close. A wise planner looks ahead and tries to interpret what might happen in regards to something, and in this case, there are veterans and others who may be offended by this. In that case, rather than embrace controversy, the wise decision is to determine the city just really shouldn’t be involved in something like this. It’s that simple.
Shawn Sullivan
10:18 am on May 22nd
I agree with Rob. I am familiar with the sculpture and the student. I think that anytime a visitor to our community would like to contribute something to it, we should closely explore that opportunity.
There is nothing ulterior about the sculpture, only a student who wishes for peace in the world. I think that’s a noble sentiment. I know that every time I would see it, it would cause me to reflect on that very thing.
As for the throw-down, it’s unfortunate that these things happen in the visible eye, but then again, I would rather have that, than have them buried behind closed doors.
I don’t know Ed Gale, but hope, if he has designs on becoming mayor, that this is the exception, and not the norm regarding his behavior.
John H. Fischer
10:37 am on May 22nd
Matt..
As you are probably well aware… nearly anything that goes up on public property is going to be subject to some level of controversy. Some people are going to be passionately in favor.. some people are going to be passionately opposed.. and normally the majority actually doesn’t care that much one way other other (just because I am not a fan of this rampant apathy and I think it is a sad thing doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist)
If the city avoids all things that involve controversy… there is not much that the city can do. (and not doing anything involves its own controversy)
I have not seen the proposal for this statue and as such I don’t have a strong feeling one way or another. I would be willing to agree with you that some people might take offence to it (after all, some people tend to take offence at everthing… and I am sure there are people out there who take offense to our statues and monuments in memory to those who have served and/or fallen in that service)
However, in identifying a certain group that “MAY” take offense.. there I disagree… especially when that group is veterans.
Rob Mentzer
10:38 am on May 22nd
Whatever, Alderman Kaiser. I wasn’t there and I wouldn’t presume to put words in your mouth. But there DOES exist a certain style of argument where people attribute a certain set of views to “the veterans” rather than treating veterans as individual people with different views. And when that happens it’s galling.
If you didn’t use that style of argument, then good! And even if you did, really, watch-throwing is never what we need.
Still. The idea that a peace sculpture would be offensive — again, provided the title isn’t “Screw the troops!” or whatever, and I’ll take Shawn’s word that it isn’t — seems a little nutty to me. Perhaps my outrage-o-meter needs to be taken in for recalibration.
John H. Fischer
10:45 am on May 22nd
Rob… where do you take your outrage-o-meter?
My crap-o-meter got pegged a while back and hasn’t worked right since..
mapletownshrub
11:05 am on May 22nd
I think we should take Mr. Kaiser’s comments with a grain of salt. He was also the one who during the first council meeting quoted Fox News.
So you can tell his minset right away. He watches Fox News and he hates the Peace Movement. I bet he listens to Rush and Hannity as well.
Jim Rosenberg
11:13 am on May 22nd
When people take up positions on opposite sides of an issue and debate them vigorously, the public is often well-served. Then again, here’s an interesting snippet of a legislative meeting in Taiwan where it seems to go a bit too far to be helpful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbSvPtyCoEs
Minutes are good for recording official actions and some of the discussion. They necessarily leave out a lot of nuance by their very nature because much of that would require an improper level of subjectivity on the part of the person recording the Minutes.
Dino Corvino
11:59 am on May 22nd
Shrub,
The only real significance of Kaiser is his presence, not his TV viewing habits. I am not going to defend a dude who quotes Fox.
But we should respect people who step into the breech of public service.
The further issue is the told tale from three sources is nearly the same. It differs from the official minutes. Also I am interested in the fact that people tell me that the city makes an audio recording, which if made by the city, would be a public document of meetings. But, when asked, was told that this is not done.
I think Mr. Gale’s behavior is part of a trend. When Councilman Foley was first at a meeting, he wanted to do something that was apparently outside of procedure. Mr. Gale responded in what can only be called a scolding or intimidating manner.
I rememeber this because it was my first council meeting, and I leaned over to Pat Peckham and said, “This is great, that guy Gale is going to beat the crap out that guy Foley. I should have come here sooner.”
I remember this because I have told the story a dozen times, and seen similar behavior a dozen times.
The interesting thing about this, politically, is that the presence of Foley announced the people that traditionally voted with Gale (Ms. Radtke and someone else whos name I forget) were gone, and as such he was a sort of a political island at the time.
And being an island is tough given the voting block nature of the council.
Timothy Pickett
1:39 pm on May 22nd
Mr. Kaiser,
While walking to work yesterday, I saw this memorial of sorts. It was well presented with a white decorated “sculpture” with a few flags and white crosses planted behind the piece. On the side it said a message about peace and that it was to remember the forgotten soldiers. Is that the one in question? I imagine it is.
The message did give me something to think about until I got to work so the intent had effect in my case. I am a VietNam Era Marine veteran and I thought nothing bad about this memorial. Compared to the others I see behind the Courthouse every day, it speaks more of a message about peace than it does as a name, battle or war rememberence shrine. I like it and now that I know more about the history of the undertaking… I like it even more.
I don’t believe that you, Mr. Kaiser, should worry too much about the posible feelings of veterans that would see this sculpture, ask any veteran that I know and they’d have no problem with this at all… quite the contrary. Not one of them would ever want to see another kid die in a war and if a message about peace helps in at least the smallest way, it should be encouraged.
“In that case, rather than embrace controversy, the wise decision is to determine the city just really shouldn’t be involved in something like this.”
I disagree wholeheartedly, it should be encouraged. What could be the worst case scenario about this possible “controversy”… an open disussion of the merits of civility and peace?
John H. Fischer
1:55 pm on May 22nd
Timothy…
I assume you are talking about right in front of the courthouse where Grand meets Forest and 6th Street. That is a replica of the Tomb of the Unknowns that the VFW puts up every year as part of their Memorial Day observances… It is not the sculpture in question.
Saltpeter
6:35 pm on May 22nd
I find it quite interesting that in comment #4 by Mr. Mentzer that he finds it “galling” when Mr. Kaiser comments on what a veteran “may” think, yet in the very next paragraph he is quick to declare what Mr. Kaiser is “really thinking”. Seems like a double standard to me. In comment #10 he claims to “not put words into Mr. Kaiser’s mouth”, yet does so by claiming to know what Mr. Kaiser really thinks. Talk about a little “nutty”!?
The point about the flying watch is right on the money. Not acceptable behavior in any setting, but especially in a city meeting. Meeting minutes not reflecting what actually happened? I’m shocked! City transparency per usual. Not!
Mr. Kaiser, please continue to stand up to the face of light weight intimidation. You are doing a great job for the City of Wausau and the citizens you represent!
ataraxia
7:54 pm on May 22nd
I have to wonder if some of the people returning from service in the Iraq or Afghanistan theaters with any of the branches of the Armed Forces would think of a statue with Arabic characters prominently displayed in their home town?
Sure, my buddy had his legs blown off from an IED while patrolling in an unarmored HumVee, wandering some forgotten corner of what military people call “The Sh!tbox”… but, Hey… What a swell peace display on Main Street.
I know a certain 6 foot tall female MP named Lisa that would love a piece of anyone who would be thoughtless enough to insult the Army in this manner.
ataraxia
8:05 pm on May 22nd
Oh, and I forgot to add…
As far as Mr. Gale is concerned, the man is a thug, pure and simple. You can ask his neighbors, who have been intimidated by him for years. If they had their druthers, the city should have Gale declared a public nuisance.
It is amazing he didn’t get fragged in The ‘Nam.
Dino Corvino
8:06 pm on May 22nd
Everyone,
I want to urge civility in this situation.
I also want to again focus on the issue at hand, the nature of Mr. Gales response at a City Council committee meeting. Is the behavior of Mr. Gale at a city council committee meeting appropriate?
Rob Mentzer
8:53 pm on May 22nd
Saltpeter, the point is that in the past I have heard people make broad assumptions about what veterans probably must think that don’t account for the fact that different vets have different views. All I was saying was that WHEN that happens, it’s galling!
But as I said, I don’t know if that’s what Matt Kaiser did or not. I wasn’t there. He says he didn’t, and if that’s true I say good for him! Why is this difficult to understand?
And once again, people: Watch-throwing is never the answer.
Charles U Farley
9:11 pm on May 22nd
I’ve only met Ed Gale once, but he does have passing resemblence to Nikita Khrushchev the shoe banger, both physically and in temperment.
The conduct should be reprimanded, plain and simple. And during the next election cycle, I would have his opponent use a picture of a watch with the slogan “It’s Time for a Change!” and mention this incident and his temper in general in ALL campaign literature.
ataraxia
12:12 am on May 23rd
In response, (not a challenge) edbdqt…
Who is going to reprimand Gale for a 2nd degree physical assault on a fellow council member? Who? That marshmellow Mayor? You are dreaming if you believe that is going to happen.
Let us get down to fundamental questions about how Wausau government works, or more accurately doesn’t.
1) In this age of inexpensive digital recorders, why is not every committee meeting mandated to be recorded and posted on the Internet in compliance with Open Meetings laws? Digital recorders cost $50 or less and can record 15 hours or more at a clip, easily downloaded via WMV files and that is more than enough to record the notable windbags on council, and you know who you are.
2) If not mandated by law, why is not every meeting digitslly recorded and posted by local media as a public service? Have they no cajones? Bandwidth is cheap enough.
3) Why is a very prominent standing committee, Human Resources, conspicuous by its absence on the city website in both agenda and minutes? What are the big secrets held there, Chairman Brezinski?
4) Why is the local media not shreiking about the HR committee’s lack of openess over the past few years? (Rob Mentzner, are you listening? Or are you part of the conspiracy, sissy boy?)
5) It is high time the common man, armed with modern technology, take out some of these local tin gods at the ballot box. Any one person micro-business has the tools of a back office software suite, public databases, publisher software and cheap-o web pages, just the same as any big-dollar downtown political campaign. The mainstrean media is as irrelevant as they are clueless. Let the representative republic reign, as envisioned by the founding fathers.
Barry Liss
6:47 am on May 23rd
I’d like to see the statue itself to judge its aesthetic qualities…
I will say I find the conflict over it fascinating…
Rob Mentzer
8:08 am on May 23rd
“Sissy boy?” Is that how we’re doing this? Before I read that I was going to spring into action on each of your items. But “sissy boy,” that smarts. Now I think I WILL go join the conspiracy.
And for god’s sake there is only one ‘n’ in my name.
Shawn Sullivan
10:19 am on May 23rd
Once again, I would like to urge civility in this discussion, and, while Rob certainly doesn’t need anyone sticking up for him, calling anyone “sissy boy” tends to subvert the discussion.
Further, Barry (and anyone else interested), here’s an article from the WDH regarding the sculpture with a rendering of it. I’m attempting to find actual photographs of a scale version.
http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/article/20090123/WDH04/901230349
Mohawk Matt
6:45 pm on May 23rd
This whole thing is hilarious.
Saltpeter
10:15 am on May 26th
Mr. Mentzer…here we go again with the double standard. An out going “A little nutty” is O.K. in your book, but an incoming “sissy boy” smarts?! You dish it out, but don’t like it when it comes back.
Also,…no need to go out and join the conspiracy. Whether you know it or not, you’ve been a card carrying member in good standing for some time now.
Dino…Gale’s behavior is totally inappropriate and because of the conspiracy at the WDH w/ City Hall, we had to hear about the watch at Citizen Wausau and The City Pages. That speaks volumes! Keep up the good work!