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A Cynical Community Goes Nowhere

by Dino Corvino on July 2nd, 2009

I am blessed each and every day, and I fight with cynicism and sarcasm on each of those days.  The City of Wausau has blessed me with an amazing life and a rich tapestry of friends and experience.  Most days I feel like the luckiest little boy in the world to be living where I am, being around the people I am around, and doing the things I do.  Never once do I not realize it.  Often times, I hope you feel the same way.

Over the past year, I have been exploring ideas and politics in this town in a new way, at least for me.  I have been trying to learn the players and learn the game a little bit better.  As such, I have had both great experiences (spending time with Pat Peckham) and bad ones (spending time with others).  I have seen acts of tremendous leadership and sacrifice, and I have seen acts of tremendous personal cruelty that is masked as somehow part of this political process.  We have watched a GOP spokesman ousted for seeking moderation in tone, and we have watched the national media decry a man seeking that cooler heads prevail.

We had the terrible incident involving the letter of intimidation sent to the Council here in Wausau, fraudulently from the VFW address.  This letter was, in my opinion, a low point in Wausau politics.  But I did not know some of the terrible stories about the last few election cycles, and the personal and vicious attacks some of our elected and nonelected officials have taken.

Do not get me wrong.  I believe that this administration lacks transparency.  I believe that this administration is misguided, and in many ways, in over its head as Wausau seeks to find its footing in the next 10 years.  I think our Mayor is far too passive in regards to anyone and anything, save for his friends he spends time with up north.  None of this makes him a bad man, and none of this warrants personal attacks on him made through anonymous means.

In the past months we have seen a local village administrator and his wife attacked personally, and some might say viciously in the Wausau Daily Herald Forum.  Everything from this man’s weight, to his wife’s ability to have a more attractive husband was brought forth by an anonymous poster.  This administrator was able to get the name and address of the attacker, and he sent him a measured letter inviting the attacker in for a face-to-face meeting to handle these sorts of conflicts.  The attacker then had what I would call a bit of a nutty, dancing all over town about how the administrator was doing this or that with the letter, and attacking him further.  Then suddenly, as if out of nowhere, he changed his tune and screamed that the Wausau Daily Herald gave out his personal information.  This would be AFTER the man showed the world the letter, gave interviews, and the like.

In Wausau we have a large elected council.  This council is tasked with management of the future of our city.  We have an elected Mayor who is tasked with the day-to-day operation of our city.  The Mayor came to us after retiring from his professional life.  The council … they all have other jobs.  My point is, I am thinking they all chose this.  They all chose to serve.

Sure there are some benefits.  Many go on to improved lives, higher standing the community, and some go on to higher office.  It appears that our Mayor is getting some of the great social perks that come from being the man in charge.  Many decry this, and I have in the past, but recently it was pointed out that no matter who is in the chair, those perks have existed.  Whether I like the Mayor or not, they all tend to get to spend time at the cool up north lake house of wealthy friends, they get invited to the cool Christmas parties, they get the cool stuff.  They are, after all, the Mayor.

But now it seems like we have entered into a horrid time of personal attack.  We can see the massive venom on display places like the WDH forum or facebook, or by some degree twitter and other places where people can anonymously post mean spirited items.  Personally I have received emails from folks saying that I should attack people more viciously, and more personally if I oppose their actions or policies.  For about a day that seemed like a good idea.  These are public officials after all.  They volunteer, so they have willingly placed a target on their back.

I was wrong.  I was wrong, and that sort of personal cynicism has no place here in Wausau, or Central Wisconsin.  Everyone who seeks office does so willingly.  They seek to help, they think that they have something to offer their fellow man.  They think that they can make it better.  That is it.  End of story.

Our personal cynicism clouds our judgment about these people.  We see conspiracy where it is not, and we seek to make them into targets.  Doing this, we only harm ourselves.  By allowing people in this city to use vicious means to attack all of the members of the council, we make the next generation of leaders less likely to appear.

Jim Rosenberg once told me that you need to be aware of what is next, when you seek to cast stones.  I did not get it, and I probably still do not fully understand it, but I think he meant that before we tear down what we have, we should be aware that the next one is less likely to be as good.  We might in fact be creating a descending grade on which we get poorer and poorer leadership each time we seek to tear someone down, simply because we can.

Our personal cynicism enables us to feel powerful, instead of sad or afraid.  This misguided power is often used to lash out and harm people.  Hear that, harm people our attacks are harming the people who have volunteered to help our city move forward.  I have not been elected to anything, so maybe I need to consider that before I throw stones.  Maybe you could consider that as well.

It is fair to disagree on policy: it is even encouraged.  Our newfound lack of civility as evidenced all over the place should be stopped.  We, as a COMMUNITY, should demand of ourselves that we do not condone the actions of those who would seek to harm people, not policy, for their own ends.  We should seek to engage these folks and seek to drive a wedge between them and the process, as they seek to drive wedges between the council and the voters.

Our city council is full of good people.  They mean well, and they are trying their best.  Maybe instead of encouraging them to be part of the voting block (which is thankfully disintegrating) maybe we should encourage them to take steps to be more transparent, and we should engage in their discussions with votes and the media.

In honor of their sort of goodness, I thought I would make a list of one thing I like about each of them.  In no particular order.

  1. Gary Gisselman.  I have created a mythos around Gary that makes him simply the smartest man I have ever known.  When I was a boy I would go to the library and work on school papers, and inevitably Gary would help me find everything I was looking for, and more.  Hence, the smartness.  Plus, he is a studied and patient member of the council.
  2. Deb Hadley.  First off, it appears Deb has known me far longer than anyone should.  So that immediately makes her cool, for enduring that.  Secondly, I think that Deb is committed to her ideas, and she sees things clearly and acts with a clarity of vision.  She does not often seem to get sidetracked by the passion of it all.  And she owes Rosenberg 20 bucks.
  3. Steve Foley.  Steve is simply the cool guy on the council.  But more than that, Steve is a multitasking, community driven father who puts his money and his life where his ideas are.
  4. Ed Gale.  Ed Gale is passionate, smart and driven.
  5. Lisa Rasmussen.  New to the council, Lisa is willing to engage in the conversation far more than anyone else.  When no council member will respond to an email question, Lisa will always.  I think that is noble.
  6. Gary Klingbeil.  Like Pat Peckahma, I like Gary’s calm sense of process.  Things take time, discussions happen, time passes and Gary seems to get that.
  7. Jim Brezinski.  Simply put, Jim is a teacher.  He presents his opinion in a way that reflects his ability to communicate.  And, Jim is a survivor.
  8. Jim Rosenberg.  Rosenberg wants to be the cool guy, but you can tell just by looking he is a dork.  In a good way.  He has dorky passions, but he is really passionate.  He is that sort of dorky earnest guy who will always end up being the hero, because it is the right thing to do.  And he acts on a longer vision than most.
  9. Bill Forrest.  The thing about Bill is I think that Bill gets it.  He understands the divisive nature of things, of the process, of those people in the community who would drive that wedge.  And he does his best to ensure that the process is safe and possible for council members.  He is a great council president.
  10. Tom Miller.  First off, Miller has a great pickup truck.  Second, I think that Miller sees the world in such a way that he is able to understand his voting and position with clarity and grace.
  11. Matt Kaiser.  Like Lisa, Matt is a new cat and is more than willing to engage the process.  To engage the conversation.  I like his willingness to say things, make mistakes and correct them.  That reflects earnest effort.
  12. Sherry Abitz.  Sherry is tough.  Tough as nails.  You can see that her time has been hard on the council.  You can see that she listens to her district closely, and she works hard to ensure that these things are brought forth.  Abitz is a worker, and that is awesome.

So there it is.  12 people.  All trying to do something.  All volunteers for lack of a better term.

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19 Responses

  1. [...] and the circumstances surrounding … ) Share The Secretwritten by \ tags: Steve Jobs A Cynical Community Goes Nowhere – citizenwausau.com 07/02/2009 I am blessed each and every day, and I fight with cynicism and [...]


  2. Charles U Farley

    5:55 pm on July 2nd

    Interesting. I was passing the 1st Avenue house that featured prominently in Deb Hadley’s campaign literature last year and happened to notice it had been sold since he election. My first thought was “I wonder who bought it and for how much?” shortly followed by “they should do a follow-up story on that.” After a few seconds, I thought the better of it. A follow up would serve nothing other than that pervasive cynicism.

    On the same note, I do worry about how all these attacks will affect our future. My alderman, Gary Gisselman, isn’t getting any younger and the only opposition he’s ever had that I’m aware of is Marty Welles, who I think is about the same age. I’ve thought about who’s out there in my district who might be a good rep, and I just haven’t been able to think of anyone who’d be willing. In the organization I’ve been involved in, I’ve seen reticence on the part of many otherwise good citizens from my district to take leadership roles because, in part, they don’t want to be “out there” exposed to criticism so I worry this will be exacerbated, soon.

    (To be clear, if there are political castes then I am an untouchable, fit only to write a check or post a sign, never to run for office. I won’t elaborate other than to say it’s not as bad as you think, but just enough to where I don’t use my real name so my family members don’t bring it up over and over again. That, and I’m almost debilitatingly shy.)


  3. Boogenstein

    8:05 pm on July 2nd

    When mainstream politics is trying to move away from personal attacks and the associated BS, Wausau is just getting warmed up and taking on this type of politics with apparent glee. Maybe Wausau needs to join this century?


  4. Mike Wall

    10:05 am on July 3rd

    It should be of no surprise that members of the city council are often the mover and shakers in the Wausau area. Often they are business owners and as such will look at city issues with the lens of pro-growth, pro-business which more often then not means they are republicans. Being a republican in of its self is not a bad thing of course.

    However, some members mentioned in Dino piece have been financial supporters of things like the local Republican Party and “events” like “The Wausau Tea Parties” – which are backed by another major voice in Wausau area polities AM 55 WSAU. Like Fox News, AM 55 is not about facts, but entertainment, ratings – making money.

    You can see Chris Conley’s – operations manager of AM 55 own words about what is the bottom line issue for AM 55 – advertisers. Like Fox news AM 55 will promote down right uncivilized events and hateful marginalizing speech to get said advertisers and damn the facts and damn those they marginalize – doing whatever it takes to make money.

    To bring this back to Dino’s topic. Some members of the city council see no problem with this marginalizing and even hate speech as evident at the Wausau Area Tea party and AM 55 rants – matter of fact, they financial support it; and dare say have no qualms about such hate driven speech. Nor do I believe as Dino says “they think that they have something to offer their fellow man… end of story”.

    I find it hollow at best the idea that some of the members mentioned in Dino’s piece have attentions that are admirable; I feel it is often more about the promotion of business – their bottom line. And I find the idea that anyone “is committed” to their “ideas” as a good trait in of it self to be foolish. Torturers are committed to their ideas too. Satin is committed to his. So the idea brought up in Dino’s piece, the idea we need to get along and work together and that Dino sees this admirable attempt in local politics I feel is incorrect:

    When you have member of any governing body promoting bigoted, racists’ statements and organizations through their financial support – there is no idea swapping… no real willingness ability to compromise… and when they are not called to the carpet for said actions by fellow council members or constituency or the media – there is not civil place to go.

    The reality is that some members of the council motivated not by the general good, but by manipulating the “laws” to benefit the bottom line. And like with AM 55 the bottom line is all about the money and damn whoever gets in the way of that.

    So though I respect Dino’s very much, I also think he is very much wrong on this point. We do not just need another “no spin zone” a place for the right to spew down right hate speech. They have plenty of places for that. And let’s keep open places like CW to shine a light on some of the downright barbarism happening in politics. And that does not mean soft peddling “committed” city council members for the sake of bipartisanship either. Until said members stop financially supporting hate organizations, I give a shit less how committed they are. I only care about the people they are hurting and that they should have no place in positions of power.

    Michael Wallschlaeger


  5. Dino Corvino

    11:05 pm on July 3rd

    Mike,

    Thanks for your comment. I want to caution you on one thing though…the broad brush with which you paint is also the brush that you decry.

    You make tenuous connections, leaps of intellectual faith, while presenting no evidence.

    If you want to prove to me this or that, show me this or that.

    To go from the racist Tea Party idea, to 550 Am, to Chris Conley, to republicans, to the city council of wausau wisconsin is a bit much. It lacks connective tissue.

    You have decryd the right for doing that very thing, and you hear them do it everyday. The broad generalization, the lack of evidence, the belief based on nothing…be careful my friend.

    When one believes in a conspiracy, it is easy to find evidence of it everywhere.


  6. Mike Wall

    11:43 pm on July 3rd

    I was trying to save specific finger pointing while still making my point. If you want me to quote the Tea Party people about which County Board member help pay for the last tea party, I will. However, I thought it not necessary. Glad to do it if you want me to mention the business here on this site.
    Keep up the good work.


  7. Dino Corvino

    12:01 am on July 4th

    Your claims of this or that, while interesting, I think miss the direction of the post. But, if you want to make a claim like you do, then the claim is strengthened by being as specific as possible.

    You have your own blog, and I encourage you to do the opposite of what you criticize the right for doing, broad non evidence based claims.

    If you want to say this or that, show the world the evidence for this or that.


  8. Mike Wall

    8:34 am on July 4th

    OK then

    I think I may still have it on my digital recorder when the organizer of the last Tea Party thanked on stage Hadley Office Supply for helping out that the event.

    Sorry if I am wondering off the target of this post. My real point of your post is two fold:

    1 – There can be no real common ground when one side of a debate supports fear mongering often racist points of view. If politicians support such organizations and don’t publicly disown the neo-fascist elements in them and stop finically supporting them (these elements that are killing people form women’s health providers, security guards at holocaust museums to Pittsburg Police officers) then where do we go?
    Yes that implies that I see a link between financially supporting the Tea Party as they are often run now, financially supporting AM 55 and all its hate speech and the above deaths & marginalizing of the “other”.

    2 – I think it is dubious at best that all local politicians are always in it for the greater good. This system is designed for powerful people to manipulate, with the fact that the more money you have the better your chances of being in control. This system gives a great cover for many to use for what ends up often being personal gain. And, again, I don’t care how dedicated people are to causes if the cause is not just.

    That’s my point Dino. Thanks again and I’ll try not to muddy it up. I think your attempt is a noble one.


  9. Dino Corvino

    2:54 pm on July 4th

    Again Mike, you choose to do the same thing you decry others of doing…you offer nothing in the way of evidence. You claim of neo fascism, those are just words.

    Who is a neo fascist? Why? SHOW ME.

    Not one to psychoanalyze, but your broad spectrum theory as an anarchist is flavoring this commenting to the point where you are not giving me anything save for bullet points.

    What cause is NOT JUST? Who believes and acts in causes that are NOT JUST?

    All government?

    What side supports fear mongering? How can you show me fear mongering?

    What city council members are supporting neo fascists?

    What I am saying Mike is Show Me something. Prove something.


  10. Mike Wall

    4:05 pm on July 4th

    Dino I just told you. Here is some proof for you:

    http://wausauteaparty.com/donors.html

    Deb Hadley is listed on their own web site as “donor”. I’ve heard their commercials of AM 55. They support hate in our home town. How you ask?

    Shall I get the quotes from AM 55 numerous radio show that promotes hate speech and their connection to all the right wing killings around the country.

    AM 55 just went to Fox News, here is some of what they say:
    Hannity of Fox News: “The Obama administration revealed its plan to go after gun owners”. “Welcome to the new world order.”
    Lou Dobbs: “A new assault on your freedom to buy and own guns”
    Glenn Beck: ‘This guy will take away guns…” “…this is what’s coming friends, depression and revolution”
    Other right wing “experts” talked about “heading to totalitarianism, fascism” and most shocking Fox News had their talking head state: ‘those crazies in Montana who say we are going to kill ATF agents because the UN is going to take over, well they’re beginning to have a case.”

    Shall I go get all the national interviews from Tea Parity’s – the ones where people are still calling Obama a Muslim (as if that would be bad) – a none citizen, etc?

    Next:

    Neo-fascism from Wikipedia:

    “Neo-fascism is a post-World War II ideology that includes significant elements of fascism.” “Neo-fascism usually includes nationalism, anti-immigration policies or, where relevant, nativism (see definition), anti-communism, and opposition to the parliamentary system and liberal democracy.”

    Do I really need to go into more spacifics on local Nationalism, Nativism, Anti-immigration, and opposition of liberal democracies?

    Neo-fascism is growing around the world. Italy the Mayor of Rome Seig Heil’s for god sake. Russia they put out videos of immigrant beatings. In Iraq there are swastikas graffiti on the walls for the first time ever right after the US occupation started. Violence against Hispanics has increased 42% America.
    I will Google all this for you if you don’t want to take my word for it.

    What more proof are you looking for? What more dots should I connect?

    This has gotten off topic. To bring it back in. Again:

    1 – It is through rose colored glasses to think that people in leadership positions are always in it for some higher good. This system is designed to give cover for powerful people to be in government – often including a lot of personal gain. And I reject the idea that just because someone is “committed to” their “ideas” that in itself is good.

    2 – If those in power do not reject the neo-fascist elements of the organization they belong to and actually financially support it, then there is no place to go to in a civil debate. They need to be scrutinized, watched and hopefully pressured to either be more civil or leave said positions. No one is doing that locally.


  11. Mike Wall

    12:41 am on July 5th

    Do I really need to say more then this 33 sec clip from the Tea Party today?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD8MUcW5V1M


  12. Mike Wall

    4:45 pm on July 5th

    I think it is ok for me to add that Dino and I have been exchanging e-mails regarding his thread and he is (rightfully) critical about some of my comments to it. I think Dino is correct about some of it and I do take his criticisms to heart; especially the part about getting off topic.

    My first post was a response to what caught my eye in Dino’s original piece. The idea that “They seek to help, they think that they have something to offer their fellow man. They think that they can make it better. That is it. End of story.”

    I hate “End of story” arguments. Almost everything is much grayer then that.

    I am hyper cynical about politics and the motivations of powerful people. In my first post I went on that tangent trying not to name call specific council members but to point out inconsistencies to the “make it better… End of story” comment.

    I strongly feel supporting organizations (which often has racist’s overtones) does not make anything better. Some council members actually finically support these organizations. To my knowledge nothing has even been said publicly rebuking the hateful elements inside some of the AM 55 shows / callers or some Tea Party members. If there never has been even acknowledgment of these elements – this in my mind makes said politicians less then worthy for leadership roles in a diverse community like Wausau or anywhere for that matter.

    The pressing for more and more facts regarding my racist claims took Dino’s post to another direction – that direction was more of a knee-jerk reaction on my part. I have a full and complicated understanding of the political landscape… a philosophical bent that I am more then happy to defend with specific facts. That knee-jerk reaction took the thread farther away then need be.

    Rereading Dino’s piece again I have to agree that there is no place in politics for personal attacks as to the nature of physical appearances etc. Criticizing someone’s attractiveness is as reprehensible as calling a known Christen a Muslim because of the color of their skin. Both have occured in Wausau, both, rightfully, should be publicly denounced.

    Dino is a much better writer then I. He’s a much better editor too. I am better for his observations and his passions and I’ll try to learn from his example.


  13. Barry Liss

    5:49 pm on July 5th

    Look Mike, I went and marched with my kids in the short 4th of July parade. After all, it’s my country’s celebration of independence. The Teapartiers were there. I disagree with much of what they say. So be it. As far as I could tell they were nice – meaning polite, mannerly. What would we be if we refused to interact with people whom we disagree? Is fascism really a word we want to use to describe these folks? I don’t think so.


  14. matthew

    7:58 am on July 6th

    Barry -
    There were, and are, polite, mannerly and nice facists. Those characteristics do not exclude them from facism. As to Mike’s “facist” comments, take it for what it is. I find it interesting that Dino can be so critical of Mike’s labelling and use of the word ‘facism’ when he, in a different post, referred to two people as his ‘main man’. A term, I think most people would find appropriate only to one. Dino’s response was that there can be mant “main men”. He offers no ‘proof’ of that, just that he uses it that way. Fine, but mercutio’s use of ‘facist’ is no different. He uses it as he sees fit. As with most labels it seems to pejorative and without too much meaning. It is merely an expression of disapproval, but it seems he aimed it at their belifs and motives not their personal characteristics. It is a generalization that lacks much meaning. Most generalizations do. But Dino’s generalization that all the menbers of the city council mean well and are trying their best is at least disputable. And he offers no more evidence for it than does mercutio. He also seems to make an assumption that there exist common goals. That is also disputable. Back to the Facist example, It could be argued that there were facists who were good people and tried their best to accomplish goals that others would find at least inappropriate if not reprehensible. Their personal goodness and efforts has nothing to do with the merit of the goals they seek.


  15. Barry Liss

    9:31 am on July 6th

    No, there are no polite fascists. Eichmannism is not fascism. In any case, these are Lewis Mumford’s criteria for fascism from the book Men Must Act, written in 1939 urging the US into WWII – in other words, authentic fascism:

    1) glorification of war: war as the permanent state of mankind and as the perfect medium for fascist barbarism.
    2) contempt for the physically weak.
    3) contempt for science and objectivity.
    4) hatred for democracy.
    5) hatred for civilization.
    6) fascism crowns its imbecilities, its superstitions, and its hatreds with one mastering obsession: delight in physical cruelty.

    These criteria have not been met – the threshold not reached. Thus, I would criticize the use of such labels as unnecessary indignation.

    I believe these are my neighbors and dialogue is not only possible, but likely.


  16. Dino Corvino

    10:13 am on July 6th

    OKay, we have moved far off of what I wrote, but what the heck…I believe that there is a definition in common acceptance of ‘fascism’. I believe I can look it up, and be told what it means. Since we are going to bring in my use of ‘main man’, I looked, and could find no reference in my dictionary. I think it is a commonly used slang phrase for friend, and I learned it, and have used it that way since college. Mr. Zam Zam is the one who first comes to mind as where I heard it.

    “But Dino’s generalization that all the menbers of the city council mean well and are trying their best is at least disputable.”

    I believe that I said that the act of running, and being elected is evidence that they want to help. Because, without that, they would be unable to help in the role of councilperson, which reflects effort.

    How do we prove that someone is a fascist?

    But to return to the idea of the post, forces exist that make running for city council an unattractive idea. These forces create a diminishing return for us, citizens. As a result we get less and less qualified people for the council, and as such we get less qualified leadership.

    We as a city need to move those forces out of the discussion, because they seek to harm us in the long run, and they seek to harm our fellow citizens in the short run.

    We can disagree on policy, but this wave of personal attacks cited in the article, is a bit uneeded.


  17. matthew

    11:05 am on July 6th

    Joachim von Ribbentrop, the Nazi Foreign Minister, was by all acounts a mannerly, well-behaved, polite man. He was well educated and considered ‘nice’ by the international community. None of Mumford’s criteria include or exclude someone who in mannerly, polite, and well-behaved. I again offer von Ribbentrop and other Nazi diplomats as examples. In fact his last words before he was hanged at Nuremburg were reported by the hangman to be “I wish peace to the world”.
    Dino says ” believe that I said that the act of running, and being elected is evidence that they want to help”. No dispute but there is a legitimate question as whom they want to help or by what means. They may want to help a segment of the populace to the dteriment of the others. Or they may want to help the community at large by using means that others may find objectionable. It wasn’t that long ago that Wausau had an ordinance, passed by a city council, all of whom ran for office and were elected – Dino’s criteria that they wanted to help. The ordinance made it illegal for African Americans to spend the night in Wausau. Intention and desire have to countered by results to judge the goodness or badness of elected officials. Mercutio’s use of the word ‘facist’ was, I still mantain, simply name-calling. And meant to express his disapproval. It certainly wasn’t a technical claim that they espoused either classic or neoclassic facism. And I will also still maintain that manners and mode of behavior neither makes someone a facist not excludes them from it. And I offer as a specific example Joachim von Ribbentrop. To suggest that there are no polite facists is as foolish as Mercutio’s claim tha members of the City Council are.


  18. Jim Rosenberg

    11:51 am on July 6th

    This is an interesting discussion. There is no doubt that the environment in which elected officials operate — real or perceived — has a significant impact upon who is willing to serve. Part of this has to do with external forces at work and part of it is often the responsibility of the officials or candidates themselves, since they are a big part of the environment and how people react to it.

    One observation I would make is that while being in my sixth term on the Wausau City Council makes me the longest currently-serving elected official in Wausau city government by a pretty good margin, it would probably only take me halfway up the seniority list on the Marathon County Board. (I’d have to check to be sure, but I think that’s probably a fair statement.)

    There are a number of reasons for this. One is that with 38 members, there is less focus on individual members. Another might be that people in municipalities tend to focus far more on the group of officials in their respective municipalities and the services for which they set direction. (School board members also seem to labor in relative obscurity most of the time.) For what it’s worth, I’ve found the county board to be a collegial environment almost unfailingly, for whatever reason.


  19. Mike Wall

    11:53 am on July 6th

    Wow this is getting interesting:

    I believe I said: “If politicians support such organizations and don’t publicly disown the neo-fascist elements in them and stop finically supporting them… then where do we go?”

    So I don’t believe I called any council member a fascist.

    I also posted this: “Neo-fascism is a post-World War II ideology that includes significant elements of fascism.” “Neo-fascism usually includes nationalism, anti-immigration policies or, where relevant, nativism….”
    Do we really need a debate that many Tea Parties supporters and AM 55 people are not nationalist, for strong anti-immigrate policies and nativists?

    Lastly

    Political Scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt talks about the 14 characteristics he found in all Fascists states. How many of these do a lot on the right fallow/profess?

    1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
    Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
    2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
    Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
    3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
    The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
    4. Supremacy of the Military
    Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
    5. Rampant Sexism
    The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
    6. Controlled Mass Media
    Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
    7. Obsession with National Security
    Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
    8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
    Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.
    9. Corporate Power is Protected
    The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
    10. Labor Power is Suppressed
    Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .
    11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
    Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
    12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
    Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
    13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
    Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
    14. Fraudulent Elections
    Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


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