Chris on 
Once again I attend a City of Wausau committee meeting for one thing, but something else on the agenda before me is fairly blog-worthy.
The Public Health and Safety Committee met Monday evening and one of the items was a local liquor-license holder who also has an entertainment license. They have been getting neighbor complaints about their activities (or numerous complaints from one specific neighbor according to the manager of the bar). The bar even received a citation over the weekend for this. Sound familiar? No, we are not still on the IC Willys thing, this time it is the Hiawatha, which is located on 713 Grant Street, just a few blocks from downtown.
The issue is the Hiawatha’s new outdoor seating area. With the new smoking ban, many bars have been creating outdoor seating areas. Hiawatha’s outdoor area has a Tiki Bar theme to it and includes a single acoustic guitar player playing in the background a couple of nights a week.
The problem is that the entertainment license is separate from the liquor license. And, although the outside Tiki Bar area is covered under the liquor license, according to statements made at the meeting by the City Clerk, the entertainment license only covers the areas inside the establishment.
Although not a hearing, owners, employees and neighbors of Hiawatha came to the Public Health and Safety Committee meeting to plead their case as they were hoping to expand the entertainment license to include the Tiki Bar. The very emotional “testimony” pointed out that the noise levels can’t be heard from neighboring properties.
The City pointed out that the citation was not for noise, but was for entertainment without the proper permit.
One person speaking for Hiawatha pointed out that both the Mayor and the Chief of Police are there, have heard the guitar player, and have no problem with it. An owner also pointed out that they have a more mature, older clientele. However, the Committee were quick to point out that who does and does not frequent the business and who does or does not find objection to the activity doesn’t make an activity that is contrary to the ordinances okay.
Hiawatha representatives also pointed out that on earlier occasions when the police responded, they were not told they couldn’t have the outdoor entertainment, they were just asked to limit volumes and hours – which they did.
Although from time to time the Committee grants entertainment licenses for outdoor one-time events, they had reservations in allowing this license as an ongoing thing, especially when there were already a number of complaints (albeit all from the same person). Expanding the license to include the outside Tiki Bar would open it up for any type of entertainment unless a large number of restrictions were put on it, controlling the type of entertainment, the days, the hours, etc. Also, they had concern that with a large number of liquor license holders in the City, many of which are trying to accommodate smoking customers with outdoor seating areas, this could open up requests from them also wanting to expand their entertainment license to outdoors, even if it was just something like piping the music out there.
I said at the top of this that we are not still on IC Willys, but maybe we still are as the Committee mentioned a number of times that they don’t want to go down the same road again. They don’t want to limit what one bar can do while allow a different bar to do it just because of who the clientele are.
There were comments in the articles Citizen Wausau did about IC Willys that rules are rules and need to be followed, and there needs to be consequences when they are not – and it should not matter who you are or whether or not you are “stand-off-ish.” By citing the Hiawatha for violating the outdoor entertainment rules, and denying their permit, the Public Health and Safety Committee is doing just that.
Is treating the Hiawatha with the same policies and limitations as IC Willy’s right? Is it fair? What do you think?
(The application was recommended for denial by a 4-0 vote, and the final decision will be made by the City Counsel at their September 10th meeting.)
So, will the Hiawatha be given a chance to apply for this license at a meeting later? And given a chance to bring in supporters to their position?
If they are given a chance to get the license they want, then I think that seems fair.
It is my understanding that the agenda item was the application for expanding the entertainment license. This was their chance (at the committee level) to bring in supporters for their posistion – which they did.
(I was actually there for a different agenda item on enforcement of dog ordinances, which is near and dear to my heart because of a problem I am having with a neighbor of one of my rental properties – so I wasn’t prepared to take notes and am working off of memory after a long day on the lawn mower).
The City Council makes the final decision, and again owners, staff and supporters can register to speak at the 9/10 meeting to plead their case to the full council.
I went to the Hiawatha recently because a friend of mine was performing. I specifically complimented him because I thought the volume of his show was great, we were there eating dinner right in front of the speakers and I could easily hold a conversation with the other people at the table….BTW their ribs where great!
Later that night this musician came to Malarkey’s and told me he had noise complaints, I couldn’t believe it, while standing outside the fence around the tiki bar, I could hardly tell live music was even going on…
About 4 weeks ago we had a hip-hop show at Malarkey’s, and the police came 3 separate times because someone was complaining about the volume. We had the doors shut and the air on (this same person later complained our air conditioners were too loud….seriously). The policewoman on duty was very professional, and we stood outside the front and back door, without adjusting the sound, and she couldn’t even hear the music right standing right next to the front door, and left-we weren’t even asked to turn it down, because she didn’t see any problem with our levels.
I don’t really understand the motivation for getting noise complaints like this, Wausau Area Events has told me they still get noise complaints called for the bands during concert on the square to their office on every Wednesday night-and that’s from 6-8pm
The problem seem to be that we have no way to quantify what is, “Too Loud.”
The easiest and fairest way to solve this would seem to be for the city of Wausau to adopt a reasonable decibel level so there is someway to measure this. This level could be different based on the zoning, location, time, and style of the event or establishment. When you pay your entertainment license they the city could tell you was your noise limit would be.
In the event of a noise complaint the police could just roll up to the place and check the volume and then be able to qualify a complaint-and take the appropriate action.
We could look at other Wisconsin City noise levels and take and average to find ours…
I understand the non-smoking angle of this example, but if we just had a noise limit on Entertainment licenses indoor and outdoor-that wouldn’t even be an issue. I think the current issue is if the city starts to let people have bands and music outdoors in the city, with no way to measure it, to ensure compliance-it could get out of hand quickly.
*the ribs WERE great…
Tyler,
I think that no one can objectively say what is too loud. I also think that the city has well written ordinances in regards to that.
I also think that the misdirection of TOO LOUD is the audience, or in this case the bar, missing the point.
Regardless of the volumne, the bar does not have the needed license to outdoor entertainment, and was ticketed accordingly.
This, as the article states, was NOT A NOICE COMPLAINT violation.
I also think that it is unrealistic for the city to expect a tavern owner to become a sound engineer or buy a proper decibel reading device. This opens the city up to further litigation that is totally unneeded.
But, again, this is not a noise issue at the Hiawatha. They did not have the appropriate license.
BUT, Should they be allowed a permit for outdoor entertainment? And if you allow them a permit, and you deny a permit for a different venue (that the Mayor or Police Chief don’t come to socially from time to time) – How do you justify that?
Dino
The reason for the complaint was the volume of the music-not improper licensing. Without the noise complaint I doubt the cops would have been there.
I think these kinds of issues we keep coming up until we set a level. You may not think something is too Loud but communities all over have found their “reasonable level”.
Also cities all over America have decibel levels-I feel Wausau’s establishment owners could figure out simple devices like decibel meters.
John
If we set levels we wouldn’t have to worry about playing favorites.
It was brought up at the committee meeting by one of the members that maybe Wausau should base this off of a decible level so there is an objective measure. Right now the measure is subjective, based off of the opinion of the responding officer.
Two issues brought up just in the brief discussion on Monday is that 1) the Police Dept would then need to get decible meters and 2) with IC Willy’s, the base levels were the larger problem than the total volume, and a decible restriction wouldn’t have helped.
First…this is not a citation for noise. This was a citation regarding entertainment without a license. Thusly, that is the issue, not noise.
Secondly, is the implication that someone is playing favorites here? That the Hiawatha is being unfairly targeted for something? If so, is there any evidence to that what so ever?
I know of no cities in America that have a requirement that you must have a decibel meter in your venue to have live entertainment. I also know of know police departments that require sound engineer training for officers in the field.
Can you show me such a place?
If not, I will stay with my position that any attempt to force you as a venue to own, be trained in, and implement decibel reading to any scientific accuracy is an undue burden placed on you by the city or state. This burden is easily rectified by our ordinance in the city, which has been adopted and tested by peer review of the legal staff here.
Again, this is NOT about noise. The Hiawatha did not have a license for outdoor entertainment, and were ticketed for that.
Dino start here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=decibel+level+ordinances&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
this is a very common problem not sure if Any ones got it figured out completely. But there are a ton of example on google.
I get Dino’s point and I agree.
the original reason for the police arriving at Hiawatha was for a noise complaint. the police found no issues with the noise. Since they were there, they found out that Hiawatha was not in possession of a license for the performance they were given. They were ticketed for not having a license.
This has nothing to do with noise. Even if Wausau had a set decibel level, in this case it wouldn’t have mattered. They still didn’t have a license.
Much like if the police are called to a house for a party being loud. they HAVE to respond and check it out. And once there while talking to the homeowner they check his ID as they always do. Turns out he has a warrant. Regardless if the noise call was legitimate or not, they still take the guy into custody.
I think a decibel level being set in an ordinance is fine for the future, but it needs to be extremely well defined on where to measure it from, what angles, etc. You can have a crazy loud band playing and if the cops come you have five people stand in front of the cops meter and it registers lower than it would at a house a half block away. Get my drift?
Apologies for all those typos. The tiny reply box this website has is very difficult to use.
First off, let us all acknowledge todays date as the first time EVER DBC is agreeing with me. If you hear ice, it might be the hot place freezing over.
Just kidding man.
Secondly, the noise is 100% irrelevant. Decibal meters, and all the rest is meaningless.
The Hiawatha did not have a license for outdoor entertainment, and were cited for such.
According to John, they were given a chance to speak to the committee. And will be able to apply for a license in the future (next summer).
I love the Hiawatha. I used to eat there semi regularly. But, if anyone can point to how they were treated inappropriately, I woud love to know.
It is all together appropriate to use this situation as an example of the need to revisit our ordinances in the City of Wausau to see if they advance our interests as a community, when we take everything into account. If you take a look at the ordinances, you will find an array of requirements that a reasonable person could see as unecessarily complicated, costly or perhaps even overbearing. Let’s get past whether the correct process was followed in this case — which it probably was — and get to the real meat of what we should be talking about. We should be asking whether these duly enacted rules are necessary and worthwhile, or whether they do more harm than good and how they might be improved. Just because somebody enacted a law at some point in the past doesn’t mean it’s the best approach, in view of our situation today. (There was a time when the Constitution had to be amended to give women the right to vote. Jim Crow had to be vanquished by changes in law, etc.) So if we’re coming up with an adverse outcome, then saying “it complies with the law” isn’t a great justification for refusing to re-examine whether or not it’s smart policy.
I agree with you Jim. But, we need to stop the first behavior first in my opinion.
We need to acknowledge that this rule exists, was followed, etc.
Then, we need to maturely and with purpose and respect, endeavor to change the ordinance.
But, we must first do the first thing, otherwise it feels like incorrect lashing out.
An entertainment permit?
Why should a business be required to pay for a special permit to entertain customers? Seems like a scam to get more money out of some of the most regulated businesses there are.
How about a Public Grump license for people who want to complain about what other people are doing?
A Public Grump license… that is a novel concept… I would get one of those in a SECOND
Here is an interesting question, pondering, thought, etc…
Let’s say the IC Willy’s thing never happened, the marathon hearing, the threat of further law suits, none of it.
One of the big points brought out by the IC Willy’s defense is that they were being singled out, they were being treated differently.
Had none of that happened and been fresh in the minds of the City, would the Hiawatha thing have been handled different?
OR… does a part of the Hiawatha decision stem off a demonstration to IC Willy’s ownership that the City can be a stickler for rules for downtown(ish) establishments as well??
My true reaction to your question John is, what does it matter. The reality is the Hiawatha did not have the appropriate license, so kapow. Ticket.
But, to engage the question, I do not think it would have been handled differently. To support that I simply point to the PI, which had been having bands for a while, then they were ticketed for not have the proper paperwork. And have since endeavored to get the proper remodeling done, and changes made to that they could get a license.
I do not see this at all as any sort of reaction or anything like it.
It seems like there is a sound complaint that brought the police there, they decided the sound was not out of line, but when asked to see the entertainment license, the bar did not have one. As such, they got a ticket.
If one drives a car without a license, regardless of success or anything like it, it is a violation. Isn’t it?
Perhaps the direction the decibel meter suggestion was going was that it would allow police to tell the Hiawatha grump that he has no beef and that he should not call any more. Assuming for a minute that the Hiawatha had realized they needed permission for outdoor music and that they received such permission, a decibel reading of X from the grump’s residence might have been so low that the police could tell the complainer to turn up his own TV to drown it out or, in short, “Lump it, Mister. It’s legal.”
Note also that Deputy Chief Hilts said at the meeting that the police department does not want to get into the whole decibel meter business. Most of the members of Public Health and Safety seemed to agree. They’re obviously not like radar guns police use to measure speed. Too much relies on distance from sound source, exact spot of measurement, height from ground, etc. In the meantime downtown, I certainly hope Tyler has turned down the volume of his air conditioners.
I do not want to argue with Dino over the point he has made repeatedly. This is a public discussion and as such we should be free to wander in to related issues.
I do think it a shame that our Police find themselves unable/unwilling to use a fairly basic technology which is used successfully all over the World to measure noise levels. Neither the Police or the owners of the establishments would not need to become sound engineers. I have done it myself and have helped friends in Baltimore do the same and none of us had any training. It ain’t rocket science and I am sure that anyone here could manage it with ease. Dino brought up the PI which is interesting because all of their issues stemmed from the repeated complaints from one person, much like the Hiawatha’s. In both cases, even if the appropriate licenses were in place, a sensible sound ordinance would prove one way or another, whether the complaints were justified or if the complainers were wasting police time and could be disciplined accordingly. Without a sensible law, everyone is left guessing and wild accusations become likely. For instance, a particular officer might be thought to be more friendly to blues or country music but have a bad attitude to techno or reggae. Just imagine a situation without speed detection where officers might have a preference for Chevy over Ford and had to guess if people were speeding. Ridiculous eh?
Boog…I can keep saying this over and over again.
In the case of the Hiawatha, a noise citation was not given.
It was determined that the Hiawatha did not have a license for live entertainment. So, it was not allowed to have live entertainment.
In the case of the PI, I am pretty sure that is the case as well.
Regardless of what brought the police there, the fact remains that the Hiawatha did not have an entertainment license. And they are in fact free to apply for one.
The PI is making changes to the building, so as to be more compliant with the sound issues and the neighborhood. And they are not being denied the chance to have live music in the future.
So, I am still unsure as to what is not being allowed.
Dino, I said at the get go that you had made the point repeatedly and I must thank you for making it once again for no apparent reason. I hoped that you might actually try to answer some of the points made. We know that procedure was followed etc, etc, etc……….The conversation moved on from that, care to join in?
I think that the direction that the conversation moved is not particularly germaine to what actually occured.
Should we have decibal meters mandated?
Well, I got a speeding ticket once, and fought it, and the grounds was that the gun was not calibrated properly. Radar guns are highly sensitve, very expensive, legally and scientifically agreed upon tools of measure. And they can be questioned successfully often.
So, decibel readings at this point are not particularly compelling.
Because even that is open to interpretation. What meter is acceptable, what position of measure, if the police are there are the musicians playing quietly because of police presence.
I think that the law we have in place now seems to make sense to me, given that it is hardly ever enforced and rarely contested.
I think it is not significant that people want to say we need an objective measure, without providing any information as to what we should have.
Attorney Lister and his wife bought a tool from Radio Shack, and took some amazing readiings outside IC Willys. But, we do not know if the machine was used properly, st up properly, had fresh batteries, or anything.
There is no evidence in any of this that any of this was based on any subjectivity on the case of any officer. If you have information to support that idea, I would love to see it.
What is not in question is both venues did not have the proper license, and when they were found to have live entertainment, they were sited.
I am not even sure what is in question. Is that the law is unfair? And if so how has the law been unfairly used in Wausau? Not a supposition on how it could be used unfairly. How has the law been used unfairly?
And if the law has been used to unfairly target venues, what evidence is there to support that?
Yes, the Hiawatha got cited for improper entertainment license, not for noise. However, we can use this as a discussion point for other policies.. and that is what I believe others want to do… Because, as far as the Hiawatha applying for a permit to have the entertainment outside, they DID THAT at this last meeting….
Here is what happened, as I understand it.
Hiawatha had this guitar player in their tiki bar area. One neighbor made complaints. The police responded a couple of times. Although no issues were found by officers responding, they did ask Hiawatha if it were possible for them to limit the hours, etc. Which they did.
At some point in the process, it was determined that their entertainment license did not extend to the outdoor tiki bar area. They therefore asked the Public Health and Safety Committee for permission to expand it out there. According to Hiawatha managemet and ownership, they were not told to “cease and desist” pending the expansion of the license. The weekend before the PH&S Committee meeting again, there was another call. The officer did not issue a citation at that time, but did come back later in the evening to issue one. They were already on the agenda.
At the meeting, the request was to expand the license to outside. Their were two reasons for turning the license down. 1) If this outdoor entertainment license was granted, it would open the door to any venue wanting to have outdoor entertainment; and 2) The committee had reservations about giving permission to do something when there were already a number of complaints about just that thing they wanted the permit to do. It did not make sense to allow them to do something that complaints were already recieved on.
Hiawatha’s counter to that was 1) although a number of complaints, they all came from the same person…. and 2) had the police department outright told them they couldn’t have the outdoor entertainment, they would have stopped having it and thus there would not have been a “number” of complaints.
So… this topic gives us the oppurtunity to discuss what noise level is reasonable, and how is reasonable determined. The citation was issued on lack of licnese, not noise… we all get that… BUT, their request to have outdoor entertainment was denied, in part, due to complaints about noise levels, and these noise level complaints were mentioned as a concern in expanding the entertainment license, even though there is no evidence that the police ever determined that noise levels were unreasonable.
So… am I to understand then, that no bar can have an outdoor entertainment license? It seems the laws on this issue are very murky, or maybe I’m missing something.
For isolated, one time events, a bar would be able to get an outdoor entertainment license.
To get an outdoor entertainment license that is not for a specific event, I don’t know if “no bar” can get one, but one of the reasons for turning down the request was to not set a precendent of allowing them.
How is it murky? They wanted to apply for a license, they did.
The city evaluated it.
They turned it down.
If the allegation is that you do not like the terms on which the license was rejected, that is fine. But, the process is equally applied across the board. Every bar can apply for a license and go through the process.
In this case, the Hiawatha was rejected.
But, like Exhibitour, the process exists, is not a secret, and is available to all.
Turning down requests so as not to set a precedent and not giving waivers so as not to set a precedent. It almost seems as if they are afraid to do anything for fear of setting a precedent. God forbid we should stray off of the topic set not by the author but by one commenter for that might set also a precedent!
In every case mentioned here, the original incident that started the whole ball rolling was a noise complaint. What could possible be wrong with giving the business owner a fair guideline to work to. The same point applies to the police. Sure, readings can be disputed and decisions overturned. That is what the legal process is there for in the first place.
In the case of the PI, which is a stones throw from my home, one person moved in to an apartment neighboring 2 bars with live music and also next to a railway line. I know the apartment well, having partied their previously. Ignoring the other legal issues, which are being resolved, the problem arose when one person complained about noise and the cops reacted to the complainant. The bar went as far as to post the wrong times for forthcoming shows and surprise, surprise, the police showed up to investigate the noise complaint an hour before the band even played! In one instance even the jukebox had been disabled, just to be sure. Was the complaining neighbor reprimanded for wasting police time? No, but the spurious complaints were still listed against the bar when license renewal came up.
A guideline for sound levels is needed here and more than one business owner has publicly stated that they want such guidelines. It isn’t that long ago that Dino worked with loud music and uncooperative bands at Scott Street. He, of all people, should know how live music in bars is run. There is always somebody with the ability to turn the music up or down. IC Willys turned their sound up and I am not surprised that somebody involved used a $49.99 unit (the only one they sell) designed to set up home stereo systems. The whole story was a farce. I have talked with a number of interested business owners on this subject and not one of them would hesitate to acquire a proper decibel meter which would ensure their continued income. This is the reason these meters are made in the first place but if Dino and the local Police don’t want to set a precedent by doing what most of the World does, I guess that everyone will have to keep guessing what is an acceptible volume and crossing their fingers that any police that might turn up, like that particular style of music. Tyler, it might be some time before Rap is looked upon kindly, you had best stick with the Blues!
Hiawatha is in a mostly residential area and it’s not on a main thoroughfare either. I can see why it’s license request was rejected.
But I can also understand everyone elses point of view on the matter as well.
This will be interesting to follow. Please keep us updated as these types of things unfold.
I do think that an official reason for denial should be to “not set a precedent”. If they were denied for other reasons, fine, but the precedent thing seems kind of “we can deny anyone for no other reason than we don’t want to deal with it”.
As far as being in a residential neighborhood, it seems to me that the bars with the space/fencing to do outdoor events are mostly in residential areas. Maybe that has something to do with it? I don’t know.
FYI to anyone following along on the Hiawatha outdoor guitarist saga…
The decision on whether or not to expand their entertainment license to their tiki bar area (voted down in committee 0-4) will face its final decision at the City Council meeting tonight (Wednesday, 9/15 at 7 PM).
I was not at last night’s city council meeting, as I had a different meeting to attend in Milwaukee, and until I have figured out some minor functional issues in my cloning machine, I sometimes have to chose one thing over another.
According to the Wausau Daily Herald website, the City Council did not make a decision on the Hiawatha situation, and instead voted 9-3 to send it back to committee, or committees – Plan Commission and Public Health and Safety.
I was not at the meeting, so I don’t know the reasons given, but if I had to assume, it was probably sent to the Plan Commission because they are the group that addresses zoning issues and definitions. Public Health and Safety will look at how those zoning issues from the Plan Commission apply toward Health and Safety issues.
I am not sure when the next time the Plan Commission meets, but Public Health and Safety will meet Monday evening, 9/20 and I will be at that meeting because a couple of things from the Housing Code Task Force will be on their agenda, as well as a conversation on how to handle dog nuisance calls that was tabled from last month.